Susie & Peter / Podcast Episodes  / Season Six / Why Wine Matters

Summary

Wine and other booze are under attack like seldom before, from many sides: moralists, the media, health authorities citing dubious studies…

So it’s high time we reminded ourselves of why wine is important, the many values and benefits it has, and what we can all do to challenge these pernicious narratives.

Don’t worry. This isn’t some dry treatise or frothy-mouthed rant.

We are privileged to have acclaimed authority Karen MacNeil (author of The Wine Bible, no less) making the case for wine eloquently and persuasively. 

But Karen doesn’t stop there.

She’s letting her actions speak louder than words by launching two global wine advocacy campaigns – Come Over October and Share & Pair Sundays – aimed at encouraging people to come together over a glass of wine and promoting conviviality, sociability and fun. 

For wine lovers, it’s time to stand up and be counted.

In this show we explore why, and also touch on things as diverse as jugs of vodka, joyful companions, The Simpsons, and just how useless Masters of Wine can be.

French nun Sister André crops up – and we have some great pairing suggestions involving cheese on toast and fried chicken.

Starring

Karen MacNeil
Karen in action

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Transcript

This transcript is AI generated. It’s not perfect.

Susie: Hello, and a very warm welcome to Wine Blast! And we’re here, as ever, with some wine, some microphones, two big smiles and, a subject we’re really quite passionate about, because this one’s all about why wine matters.

Peter: Yes. Don’t switch off. this isn’t some dry treatise or two wine headbangers frothing at the mouth, or any more than normal. This is really important as an issue. It’s one we don’t talk about enough. But it’s absolutely vital right now, given what’s happening in the world. Here’s a taster of what’s coming up:

Karen MacNeil: We forget to talk about the positive emotional role and social role that wine plays in bringing us together. Wine is a kind of joyful companion. It’s a head trip and a heart trip at the same time.

Susie: The very eloquent Karen MacNeil there, acclaimed wine writer and author of the Wine Bible, no less, but someone who is, unusually, given her profession, letting her actions speak louder than her words by trying to instigate a social movement to promote joy and positivity and conviviality around wine in the face of what she describes as, and I quote, the onslaught of negativity around moderate wine consumption.

Peter: And very timely it is too. so this episode is geared around a fascinating chat with Karen, who is one of the most respected wine communicators in the world, based out of the Napa Valley in California. in 2024, Karen launched the Come Over October campaign. And now in 2025, she’s behind the Share and Pair Sundays initiative, which debuts this spring. more on all of that. Ah, in due course. But, shall we start by saying why we’re talking about this now?

Susie: Yeah. Yeah. So, as I speak, it’s early 2025. Dry January has been hard to avoid in the news or in conversation. And part of that conversation is the fierce debate that continues to rage in the headlines over whether alcohol is good or bad for you.

Peter: So we did a programme recently tackling this very subject of wine and health, where we interviewed the doctor and winemaker Laura Catena, together with the very learned Christopher Snowdon of the IEA, essentially challenging the pernicious and pervasive current narrative that all alcohol is bad for you, that all the previous studies showing benefits are flawed, and that there is no safe level of drinking.

Susie: Now, in that episode, we made it clear that the alcohol and health issue is complex and impossible to simplify into a headline or sound bite. In essence, it’s personal. You know, There are benefits and drawbacks to alcohol, wine included, and we all need to make up our own minds on what is the best, best thing for each of us. But the misrepresentation of evidence and health authorities clearly overstepping the mark, need to be called out and challenged.

Peter: Yeah. Now, if you haven’t listened to that show, our guests are fascinating. So do try to make time for it. We’re not going to rehash that territory in this programme. We’re going to focus here on making the positive case for wine rather than engaging with a debate that continues to rage. but we do just want to mention a couple of updates that have happened since then and which are worth, you know, m mentioning flying up.

Susie: Yeah. So in late 2024 and early 2025, a couple of important things happened. You know, on the one hand, two reputable studies came out supporting the link between moderate alcohol consumption and positive health outcomes. One was by the National Academies of Science, Engineering and Medicine, or NASEM in the us. And now that study concluded with moderate certainty that moderate alcohol consumption is associated with lower all cause mortality. In other words, if you drink a small amount of wine, for example, each day, you’re likely to live longer than if you don’t drink at all or if you drink heavily.

Peter: It’s important to emphasise how rigorous and reputable that study is. we’ll put a link in our show notes to all of these so you can check them out for yourself. there was also another study, this time from Barcelona, which focused on the influence of moderate drinking on people at risk of heart disease. And, it concluded that light to moderate wine drinking reduces the risk of developing a Cardiovascular event by 50% in this group of people at high risk of cardiovascular disease who are following the Mediterranean diet. And the professor who led the study said the results demonstrated a much greater protective effect of wine than that observed in other studies and that the reduction in risk of 50% is much higher than can be achieved with some drugs, such as statins.

Susie: And you were rather tickled by the title of that particular study, weren’t you?

Peter: It’s true, I’m afraid my infantile sense of humour, found much puerile joy in the title. Need a big breath for this one. Urinary tartaric acid as a biomarker of wine consumption and cardiovascular risk. Now, I’m not going to look at you right now because it’s going to get me going if I do.

Susie: Snappy!

Peter: It was an interesting, interesting study title and a very Interesting study, actually, because they were trying to correlate what people said about their drinking habits versus what their pee proves about their drinking habits. I really hope these researchers never come to our house to ask us questions because tartaric acid is a key biomarker for wine consumption. The, ah, disparity between what people report they drink and what they actually drink is, often a confounding variable in alcohol studies.

Susie: No idea what you’re talking about. I always tell medical professions the absolute unvarnished truth about my alcohol consumption.

Peter: Yes, yes.

Susie: So we’ve got there two studies that are, good news for wine lovers. But then came two opposing views. The first was a US report by the ICCPUD, the Interagency Coordinating Committee on the Prevention of Underage Drinking, which concluded that even low levels of alcohol consumption increased your risk of dying. A finding which directly contradicts the NASEM report. So the question is, who are you going to believe?

Peter: Yeah, I mean, I guess on the one hand it highlights the complex nature of this debate. but I suppose, you know, a sensible person would say, okay, who do I trust more on this? The NASEM panel is 14 experts in different fields from nutrition to public health, psychiatry, epidemiology, emergency medicine. Three of them are from Harvard, others from Stanford, Johns Hopkins, you know, reputable institutions. They even consulted researchers in that study, you know, from a more anti alcohol position. By contrast, the ICCPUD report was written by just six researchers. They were three addiction specialists, an epidemiologist, an anaesthetologist. Can’t even say it. But what’s an anaesthetist expert doing it. And a generic scientist, none of whom came from top rated US institutions. Oh, and of course you know, the ICCPUD is an organisation devoted to preventing underage drinking. Let’s not forget that.

Susie: And then came the news that Joe Biden’s outgoing Surgeon General, Vivek Murthy, was calling for cancer warning labels on all alcohol packaging, including wine. Now, he was leaving office before the Trump administration came in, and in any case, he didn’t have the power to mandate this. You know, only Congress can do that. But still it made the headlines.

Peter: Now we go into the alcohol and cancer issue in some detail in our wine and health episode. So do check that out if you’re interested. suffice it to say, altogether. Now, it’s complicated and it’s personal. it seems that the risk of some cancers can be increased in some people from even moderate alcohol consumption. But what isn’t often made clear is that often that increase in risk is small. And what’s more, there is evidence suggesting the risk of some other cancers may be decreased with moderate alcohol consumption. So it’s complicated.

Susie: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, alcohol may well be a, carcinogen in some contexts, and especially in excess. And no one is trying to deny that alcohol can be harmful. But if you circle back round to the NASEM and Barcelona study, if all cause mortality is improved by moderate drinking, then even if your cancer risk may be going up slightly, your risk of dying from other things is presumably going down. And overall, you’re less likely to die with moderate drinking. Does that make sense?

Peter: Absolutely. It’s about salt or sunlight. Too much will kill you, but in moderation, taking the appropriate precautions, it can be good for you. And no one seriously recommends total abstention from salt or sunlight. We’re talking about being able to make your own mind up about these things. Now, you know, we said we weren’t going to get bogged down in all this wine and health stuff, so we need to move on. Just before we do, I think we should all be a bit more like French nun Sister Andre.

Susie: Oh, what, join a convent and dedicate our lives to God?

Peter: Now, there’s a thought. Why didn’t we take that path in our lives? No, no. Sister Andre lived to 118, becoming, the world’s oldest person in the process. And when she was asked for her secret to a long life, she said, I drink a small glass of wine every day.

Susie: Hallelujah. Now, we may laugh, but if you think about that way of life as a nun, you know, there’s an element of camaraderie, of community, of enjoying wine and food in moderation. And if you genuinely love God, you’re devoting your life to something worthwhile and meaningful, possibly joyful. Plus, you’re constantly learning. And that is kind of what we’re coming onto, isn’t it?

Peter: Nice link, nice link. you know, actually, one thing Sister Andre did say in her last interview was people should help each other and love each other instead of hating. If we shared all that, things would be a lot better. M. And that is absolutely very relevant to what we’re coming on to. Because, yes, the one thing that often isn’t discussed in all the kind of mudslinging about wine and health is the intangible stuff. The joy, the fun, the. The socialising, the. The conviviality, as you said, you know, that it can foster. So at this point, let’s bring in Karen MacNeil.

Susie: Now, Karen as we’ve said, is one of the world’s leading wine communicators, author of the Wine Bible, and winner of pretty much every wine writing award there is. now lots of wine writers are happy sticking to their day job, but not Karen. And the reason we wanted to talk to her was because of her work setting up Come Over October, as well as Share and Pair Sundays, both of which are a, kind of antidote to dry January, if you like.

Peter: I began by asking Karen a simple question. Why does wine matter?

Karen MacNeil: Wine matters because it connects us to each other and to the earth. And it represents something that is so pivotally important to humans, which is that we are, in fact connected to each other and that we need that warmth and connection. And, wine. It’s, no surprise that for its 8,000 year history, wine has been a communal beverage. I find it very psychologically interesting that when you ask someone what was the most pivotal wine they ever drank or the best wine they ever drank, the person always remembers who they were with when they drank that important wine. And so right there you see that wine plays this very critical role in society and in culture.

Peter: You’ve described wine as the silent music of nature. I love that description. Could you just elaborate on that a little bit for us?

Karen MacNeil: Sometimes I hear people say that they want to, demystify wine. And I think, oh, God, please, no, no. The minute m you demystify wine, it’s right there with vodka and tequila or whatever. The biggest mystery of all is why it is that wine reflects an individual place and how it can do that so, accurately, so, vividly. And so in a way, wine really, it has something to say or something to sing. And so I think of it as. As kind of silent music. If you pay attention, it is our connection to nature. We just have to think about it.

Peter: In what other ways do you think wine can bring joy?

Karen MacNeil: I think of wine myself as a companion. In fact, even though wine, of course, is a communal beverage, and it’s so wonderful to enjoy with other people, and it’s great to save wine and say, oh, I’m going to open this bottle when XYZ person is with me, because I know they’re going to love. Despite all of that, it’s also true that when you are by yourself, wine is a kind of joyful companion. I, mean, I can sit with a few wines by myself and feel like I’m having a whole conversation, a joyful conversation. Whenever I give seminars, I often say to the audience, you know, I’M glad you’re here, but if you didn’t show up, I’d be fine because I would sit here with these wines and have a great time and people always laugh. But I truly mean that, that, you know, wine is a wonderful companion. It’s a head trip and a heart trip at the same time. Love that.

Peter: because of course the received wisdom is that you shouldn’t be drinking wine on your own. There’s something to be, to be concerned about if you’re drinking wine on your own. But it sounds like you have a very different perspective on that.

Karen MacNeil: Yeah. Everything that I’m talking about here today, maybe it goes without question, but perhaps I should say that I’m certainly talking about wine drunk in moderation, and wine being used but not abused. it’s sad to me, in fact, that so much of what is talked about about wine today immediately goes to, you know, the abuse part of the, of the bell shaped curve. But I don’t believe that that is where most wine lovers live. they are in the use category, not the abuse category. And it’s too bad that the conversation quickly steers over to abuse or, by corollary that the discussion quickly moves to an issue of alcohol. And to me, wine is more than alcohol. If all you wanted was alcohol, man, there are faster and cheaper ways to get it right. So what I love about wine is that it’s threaded into a rich tapestry of culture and religion and history and cuisine. And all of that richness is, I’m convinced, why we respond so viscerally to wine even when we can’t articulate that.

Peter: And you would differentiate that from other types of alcohol like beer or spirits?

Karen MacNeil: I would. You know, you don’t go over to someone’s house for dinner with a jug of vodka. I don’t think as a guest gift. I think it is categorically different. Now, you know, I like beer as much as anyone, I suppose, and, every now and then I feel like the right thing to do is have a Manhattan. But wine. But those beverages don’t fire the intellect for me in the way that wine does. And they don’t touch my heart in the way that wine does.

Susie: Have you ever taken a jug of vodka as a dinner party present?! No. You probably have at some stage. I mean, you’re the wrong person to ask, aren’t you?

Peter: I wasn’t rushing to answer that one, actually. I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna issue a no comment. I’m just gonna say no comment.

Susie: No, I Love her description of wine as. As a joyful companion. Yes, yes, I know what she means. You know, something that makes you think that you can almost have a conversation with, but ultimately something that brings people together. And as humans, we need that social interaction.

Peter: Yes, absolutely. I mean, there are, there are loads of studies showing the benefits of socialising when it comes to health and longevity, aren’t there? You know, we’ve talked about it before on the podcast.

Susie: Yeah.

Peter: And of course, you know, you can do this without wine. Of course you can. There are loads of good alternatives. You don’t drink wine at all. But it’s just that wine has done this job of sort of bringing people together pretty consistently over millennia. You know, it sort of loosens tongues just enough. It encourages us to wind down, which we often don’t do enough of, you know, and it encourages us to engage socially. plus, of course, it’s delicious. and can’t deny that despite the potential harms, as Karen says, there are plenty of people who are grown up enough to use wine responsibly and not abuse it. So, you know, if we constantly bang on about the potential harms, we really risk throwing out the baby with the bath water by overlooking its many potential benefits too.

Susie: Yeah, M. I mean, I also love that description of wine as the silent music of nature. you know, something that can capture a time and a place and the people who made it. And all we have to do as attentive and responsible drinkers is be open to hearing that music. You know, that story.

Peter: I think for me, you know, wine is one of the most magical things that humans have ever created. You know, I know it’s, you know, lots of people always say, oh, but it’s natural. We would say that, of course it’s natural, of course. But, you know, grapes and sugar and yeast, all that, if you left it, it would kind of ferment. Ish. But, you know, over thousands of years, we’ve helped shape this thing, we’ve helped craft this thing, we’ve nurtured it. It’s this wonderful collaboration between humans and nature. So, you know, now we have this profusion of amazing wines from all around the world, all, you know, singing their own song, as it were, you know, made by hard working, dedicated people. Let’s not forget that. Because this is not a route to M. Making yourself rich and famous, you.

Susie: Know, and those wines, for some people, it might be.

Peter: Well, for very few. For very few. But, you know, generally speaking, most people are in this because they love wine, they love this, this connection with nature and it’s glorious. You know, it should be up there in terms of human ingenuity and achievements with, you know, splitting the atom, walking on the moon, or. No, I’m going to say this any given episode of the Simpsons. Oh, my goodness. Get in.

Susie: Oh, dear. This also reminds me though, of that book we featured in our wine and health episode, Drunk by Edward Slingerland, which makes a compelling case for humans needing alcohol to make a cohesive society workable. you know, I’d also re. Emphasise your point, in case it gets lost along the way somewhere, that wine is uniquely delicious.

Peter: Amen to that. right before we come on to advocacy campaigns and why masters of wine are just not needed. Yes, you heard that right. Let’s take a quick breath.

Peter: By way of brief recap, alcohol, wine included, is under attack from the media and some health authorities, which are increasingly questioning its benefits and focusing instead on its potential harms. So it’s high time we’ve reminded ourselves of, of why something like wine matters, why it’s important, how it can be beneficial in ways that aren’t easy to summarise in a soundbite or capture in a headline.

Susie: Now, to help us do that, we’re talking with award winning writer and broadcaster Karen MacNeil, who in 2024, fed up with what she saw as the constant negativity towards alcohol and wine, launched Come Over October. Now, this was a campaign to encourage people to get together over a convivial glass or two of wine. The antidote, if you like dry January, which it’s worth remembering, is actually a trademark owned by an organisation called Alcohol Change UK which campaigns to cut drinking.

Peter: Now, perhaps, against the odds, Come Over October seemed to strike a chord with people, and not just in the us, but around the world too. Generating a buzz and attention that went far beyond even its organisers expectations. receiving 1.7 billion unique visitors of press coverage and connecting with more than 10 million consumers through in store traffic. On the back of the idea is to make it an annual event.

Susie: And not just that, but Karen and her partners are now launching a sister campaign as We’ve said share and Pair Sundays, encouraging people to get together on spring weekends to share some food and wine. according to the campaign’s literature, this is, and I quote, not only an attempt to combat the negative publicity that discourages social drinking, but also to combat loneliness, which is a growing concern among health authorities.

Peter: So I asked Karen to tell us about Come Over October.

Karen MacNeil: Yes. This is so exciting, Peter. Last year I was growing increasingly despondent that the conversation around wine had become just a conversation about alcohol. And, Dry January, which I think we got from you damn Brits, actually was sort of the conversation that was dominating. And I began to feel impatient, in a sense with the wine industry, thinking to myself, why is the wine industry not telling its own best story? And so I began to conceive of an idea. What would it be like if every wine drinker in America did something very simple? They invited a friend, a colleague, a neighbour, a family member to simply come over to share some wine in honour of wines historic legacy as the beverage that brings us together. And so Come Over October was born. I teamed up with two colleagues, Gino Colangelo and Kimberly Charles, both of whom are PR, marketing, professionals. And I knew them well enough that if it was a bad idea, they would say to me, you know, take an aspirin and go back to bed, this is not a good idea. But both of them said, oh, this could be a really good idea. Because I believe that the problem with wine often is that what passes for communication and education is actually little more than product familiarisation. And product familiarisation doesn’t move anybody’s heart and mind. And what I loved about Come Over October was that it had the elements for me of what the industry needs. It needs a time, an action and a reason. So people, consumers, we reached 1.7 billion media impressions last year because people really immediately understood it. Come Over October. Okay, the time was October. The action was to invite people to come over. And the reason is because wine brings us together. It’s a joyful thing to do. So on the heels of that enormous success, I mean, there were more than a thousand stores in the United States that did Come Over October promotions. And in fact the campaign went international with, I mean, much to our surprise, so we are going to do Come Over October based on that success is now an annual event. We will do it this year. but we also realised that wine deserves more than, in a sense, just a one month focus. And so we’ve just announced our new springtime campaign called Share and Pair Sundays. And it’s the 10 Sundays from spring to summer. So it starts March 23rd, first day of spring. And, the idea is once again to invite friends, colleagues, neighbours to, come over on Sunday afternoon to share some wine and pair some food in the most non technical of ways. We’re not talking about Angolotti with Barolo or something. It could be Pinot Grigio and potato chips. The point is to be together. That’s the underlying idea, of all of our campaigns. And if I can just lastly say, I realise I’m not letting you get a question in here, edgewise, but you know, in the discussion currently about wine and health, we forget to talk about the emotional, positive, emotional role and social role that wine plays in bringing us together. And at a time when loneliness and social isolation is at an all time high, I think that should be part of the discussion. wine plays a very positive role there.

Peter: How do we put this argument across in a way that people who just seem to see the data understand? Because as you say, it is such a major part. The enjoyment, the joy, the fun, the sociability. But these things are hard to quantify. So how do we start making that argument in a more tangible way?

Karen MacNeil: Yes, well, we believe that you have to start with actions that you can’t just make the intellectual argument, although you can do that. But that’s why these campaigns have an action to them. Because what wine is so good at, is giving us experiences. But it’s hard to write about or talk about experiences. You want people to be together, to have the experience and to then realise, oh, I get it, this is why I love wine. This is why it is so good. So it’s by encouraging the experiential part of wine that I think we win the war, in a sense. And the other part of this that’s so important is that so much of what is talked about, about wine today divides the world into cohorts. I feel like if I one more time have to hear about what Gen Z is or is not doing versus what Gen X is or is not doing versus boomers and millennials, I mean, sometimes I just want to scream. I’m, I’m like, but wait, but wait. Wine is relevant whether you’re 26, 46 or 66. So all of our campaigns intentionally do not target a single cohort because that again, divides us. And for us, wine’s asset is that it unites us. It owns that concept, it owns sociability, romance, connection, experience. Those are the kinds of Things that touch people.

Peter: And how do these campaigns work on a sort of, nuts and bolts, basic practical level as a wine drinker, how would people come across these and m be inspired by these?

Karen MacNeil: Yes, it’s a good question. So, last year, and this year will be even bigger, of course, but last year we had more than 150 wine companies, from very tiny, mom and pop wineries to big giants. Constellation, Jackson Family wines, all do come over October promotions. We created, not only the website and a social media plan, but also, logos, table tents, neck hangers, posters to put in retail stores. And so wine stores across the United States were like, that’s cool, let’s put up these big posters. It’s October, come over October. And their customers then would go into a store and think, come over October. Okay, let me buy a few bottles of wine and invite some friends over, because it’s come over October. So the campaign, in a sense, promotes itself. It seems like a simple campaign, and it is a simple campaign, but it’s very strategically simple because I feel so strongly that in order to reach a lot of people, you have to bring them to the experience in a way that seems very natural and very easy to understand. You cannot need, forgive me, you cannot need an MW to need to, you know, in order to participate. So it’s a simple campaign, but it’s very sophisticated in its approach.

Peter: I would say no one needs an MW ever.

Karen MacNeil: Oh, I don’t know. We all do. Yes, we do. Who else are we going to call when we have a question? I don’t know.

Peter: So I guess, I suppose with that isn’t the risk with a campaign like this that it could be perceived that, you know, among the positive messaging, you know, it’s really just an attempt to get people to buy more, Buy more wine. And thus it’s about, it’s more about a commercial angle than the wholesome conviviality.

Karen MacNeil: Sure, we’ve had that criticism, to which I respond, I have no wine to sell.

Peter: But do people, the companies supporting it do?

Karen MacNeil: yeah, I suppose you could say that. But having talked with every single one of these companies, it’s clear to me, that, you know, of course they want to stay in business. We all want to stay in business. We all want to do our jobs and to have a job. But I believe that most, if not all, wine companies genuinely also love wine. They have memories and experiences that have caused them to, to want to be in the wine business as opposed to any other kind of business they might Be in. I don’t think you have to scratch very hard to find that in the wine industry. So, you know, I hope people actually are able to sell more wine. I would feel great if 80% of Americans had a glass of wine every night. I think it would be a good thing. And I’m not afraid to say that.

Peter: And it sort of goes back to your point of as long as it’s wholesome and it’s positive use and enjoyment rather than any sort of abuse that then happens as a result.

Karen MacNeil: Yes, of course, I mean we’re talking about adults, not teenagers, and people, who otherwise have no limitations on their intake of any alcohol. People who are going to drink probably in the context of food and of course never abuse it. And that’s the big chunk of wine drinkers. So, I feel as though in the United States a very worrisome shift has happened and that is that the conversation around health is a, a thinly disguised conversation that really has to do with morality. We are starting to see in the US that wine drinking is being frowned upon from a moral standpoint. And this is really worrisome. In fact, I don’t know if You’ve read the WHO’s guidelines for journalists. When the WHO came out with its astounding statement last year that there’s no safe level of alcohol, they also published a guide guidelines for journalists. Number six of those guidelines is that journalists should note and note in their reporting that wine leads to, and here’s what the sentence says. Wine leads to vandalism, divorce, child abuse, marital abuse, larceny. There are about 20 of these things. That is not a health argument, that’s a morality argument. And that’s going to be really hard. That is already really hard to counteract because who could be forced violence and child abuse and marital disharmony.

Peter: So where’s this coming from then? And how do you see this playing out?

Karen MacNeil: I think it’s coming from a whole consortium of anti alcohol, forces who have wedged a, ah, chip in the ice here and have now managed to move into the mainstream from. You know, there’s always been prohibition and anti alcohol forces, but in the last few years since COVID those groups have managed to have a much larger voice and to sway public policy. And they’ve also caught the industry flat footed. It’s what bothered me so much last year is that I felt like, wow, the whole industry was just deer in the headlights what to do. so right now though, I think the situation is a little bit Better, I think wineries, and I can’t really speak for the beer industry or the spirits industry, but I think wineries are now mobilising saying, well, just a minute, this is A, not true and B, stokes a lot of fear and C, contributes, to massive misinformation about wine.

Peter: I m mean, you say, you know, in launching Share and Pear Sundays, the reporting on this subject of wine and health, alcohol and health, has often been biassed and even inaccurate.

Karen MacNeil: Very much so and not at all balanced. That’s worrisome.

Peter: And also then we have movements like Dry January or Stoptober or whatever it is, which, you’re deliberately trying to counter with a more positive, approach with Come Over October and Share and Pair Sunday.

Karen MacNeil: Yes, our campaigns are not medical. None of us, Kimberly, Ginon or myself, we’re not doctors, we make no health statements. But to me, as a, as a researcher, I think one can unequivocally say, if you can say unequivocal, unequivocally say that wine has played a positive social role in culture historically. That to me is irrefutable. So we think of our campaigns as social campaigns, not as health campaigns. And if we were going to launch a health campaign, I think anyone who wants to improve the health of Americans should probably start with the fact that, that 40% of Americans are obese. There’s a place to really have some impact on health. And that’s not the only one. So, you know, we are happy for healthful campaigns, but ours is not a health campaign, it’s a social campaign.

Susie: So this is about pushing back against the relentless negativity towards wine or excessive moralising which is being fostered by anti alcohol or neo temperance movements and, taking a stand saying wine can be a good thing. Let’s not be so joyless and preachy, you know, let’s get together and have some fun because that’s good for all of us.

Peter: Yeah. Let me quote a sentence from a recent Economist article. Although booze is addictive and harmful, in excess, a pint of beer or glass of wine brings pleasure to moderate users and such enjoyment belongs on the scales alongside the harms. The key thing here is not to lose sight of the value of that conviviality, you know, sort of socialising and fun in this broader debate.

Susie: That’s the key point. Right, so, so, just, just another thing. In your conversation with Karen, it was basically established that we masters of wine or MWS M are essentially useless. But I reckon we can challenge that by, by Trying to be useful and suggesting some helpful combos that we could, all. All try on our share. And pear sundae.

Peter: That’s a good idea. That’s. We’re desperately struggling for some reason why we’re relevant and useful. But I would go with that. I think that’s, that’s absolutely spot on. So, you know, things to put. So. So wines and, and foods to put together for the Share and Pair Sunday, Karen mentioned Pinot Grigio and crisps. She did. so it’s got to be something super easy going, fun, light hearted.

Susie: Okay. So I thought about this. What about cheese on toast or cheese toastie? You know, for me, that’s got a real Sunday comfort food feel to it and that would be delicious with a nice glass of cool, creamy, nutty Chardonnay.

Peter: I’m not sure I can go on. I think I need to go make myself a cheese toastie.

Susie: Look at that.

Peter: Warm cheese toasty.

Susie: Ooh, that crunchy.

Peter: Oh, yes, that’s good. That’s really good. Okay, how am I going to.

Susie: Oozing, oozing.

Peter: So cheese toasty and chardonnay. Love that. I am going to go with fried chicken and fizz. How about that? Those gorgeous crispy breadcrumbs. Succulent chicken bits. They work so well.

Susie: Dripping down your chin.

Peter: Oh, with sparkling wine, it’s a match made in heaven, isn’t it? As I can say from plentiful personal experience.

Susie: So there we are. but MWs can be useful.

Peter: There we go. I think that’s a slam. dunk.

Susie: Yeah.

Peter: That is back of the net.

Susie: And if you want some more suggestions, if by any chance you want some more suggestions, check out our, matching food and wine podcast shorts. They were a series of five minute episodes matching wines to things like curry spag, boll fishermen, pie and the ultimate burger.

Peter: Oh, my word, I’d forgotten about that.

Susie: A lot of research went into that, wasn’t there.

Peter: But it was the ultimate burger.

Susie: It was, yeah.

Peter: With some nice wines. we need to conclude with Karen, so I asked her to talk about wine advocacy, a phrase that she uses and what her longer term aims are with this.

Karen MacNeil: When you think about how people fall in love with wine, and usually when they do that is a lifelong falling in love. You never hear people say, oh, yeah, I was into wine for a year, but now, yeah, forget it.

Peter: Right.

Karen MacNeil: If anything, people fall deeper and deeper and deeper down the fabulous rabbit hole of wine, getting ever more fascinated by it and, wanting to share that. A beverage that does that A beverage that can incite that kind of lifelong passion and curiosity is something that I think enriches people’s lives. And to advocate for wine is to advocate for those kinds of enriching life experiences. I would not want a world without wine in it, selfishly, because I know the richness it has added to my life. And I think that’s true for almost all of my friends and I, you know, some days I think, oh, if I could only help someone else live a richer life too. There are lots of ways to enrich life, but, but for sure, one of them is, I think, sharing this most mysterious beverage with other people. There’s a reason wine is the beverage of religion, or at least a Judeo Christian religion. All that mystery, all that communal aspect, this is important to culture, important to history. So that’s what wine advocacy is. It’s not about, oh, let’s talk about the, 8,000 different Chardonnays that are made in California or something. It’s not about product information. It’s about the richness of experience that wine brings to life.

Peter: How do you see the future for wine, Karen?

Karen MacNeil: I’m determined. I’m a very determined person and I don’t let myself take no. Even to myself, right. I am going to continue, for my part, to bang this drum as loudly as I can and not be deterred by anyone. because wine deserves to have supporters. It deserves for people to stop being deered in the headlights and be willing to say, that this has been an enriching part of their life. And here’s why. Every now and then I ask winemakers, you know, they’re expecting me to ask them, you know, tell me about maceration times with Napa Cab or, I don’t know, a million questions that you or I might logically ask. But I love to ask them the question you asked me, which is why is wine important? And when winemakers pause for a long time and cannot answer that question, I think to myself, You know, we in the industry ourselves should, should think about things like that and be able to share, our thoughts on that. There’s no one answer, but, but certainly, we must be able to, to tell that story and to share that with other people. So I’m determined to keep doing that. And as a result, my belief is that a healthy wine industry will prevail. It may seem Pollyanna ish to some, but I don’t know, I just wouldn’t underestimate a determined woman.

Peter: So we wine people need to stand up and have, our voices heard. Karen, thank you very much indeed.

Karen MacNeil: My pleasure, Peter.

Susie: So we wine lovers need to stand up alongside Karen and be counted. you know, take part in Come Over October or Share and Pair Sundays. Show how wine can be a force for good, or at the very least, make sure we think about why wine matters to us, talk to people about it and not hide our lights under a bushel. You know, there is, let’s face it, so much negativity towards alcohol and wine out there. It’s just really important that we push back.

Peter: And the great thing is that we can do this and have fun at the same time. on which note, we’re going to wrap things up, by way of closing summary. Wine is one of the most magical things on the planet. A, delicious drink, rich in cultural heritage and potential benefits. It brings us together and can help us live happier lives. If we stay silent in the face of the current negativity towards alcohol, we risk letting the naysayers and moralisers have their way, curbing our freedom to enjoy this most rewarding of beverages. So let’s come together and raise a glass to the positive power of wine.

Susie: Thanks to Karen MacNeil and thanks to you for listening. If you like what you’ve heard, please do subscribe and give us a glowing rating and review. We really appreciate it. we’ll put all the references on our website, show notes. Until next time – cheers!