Susie & Peter / Podcast Episodes  / Season Six / The Vines of the Future

Summary

There’s a revolution going on in the vineyards.

It’s coming to a glass near you soon.

And it could change the world of wine forever.

We’re talking super vines. Bionic vines. PIWIs. Resistant vines. Hybrids. TEA vines – the new generation, ‘assisted evolution’ kit.

Whatever you want to call them – there’s a new breed of grape vines spreading fast all over the wine world, from Champagne to Piedmont, fuelled by the urgent need to reduce vineyard treatments and face up to climate change. 

In this show we talk to wine growers and researchers at the cutting edge of this fast-evolving field – Nicola Biasi, Dr Riccardo Velasco, Professor Mario Pezzotti and Hugo Drappier.

And if that isn’t enough, we also have some BREAKING NEWS for you.

The criticism often levelled at PIWI or resistant vines is that they don’t make very nice wines.

We challenge that notion with a tasting of our own – which includes some great value recommendations you can try out too (including a £6 bargain at Tesco).

Starring

Nicola Biasi
Dr Riccardo Velasco
Prof Mario Pezzotti
Hugo Drappier

Links

Launch podcast on your device

Photos

The brand new TEA Chardonnay vineyard, planted 30th Sept 2024, Valpolicella
Marking the planting of the first field trials of TEA vines in Europe
High security is in place to protect the assisted evolution vines from vandalism
Voltis (PIWI) vineyard at Champagne Drappier, France
Nicola Biasi in his Johanniter (PIWI) vineyard, Vin de la Neu, Italy

Wines

Here are the wines made from resistant (or PIWI) varieties which we’d recommend.

UK prices and stockists are listed. Click on the wine name for the Wine Searcher link to find where you can buy this wine elsewhere in the world:

Get in Touch!

We love to hear from you. 

You can send us an email. Or find us on social media (links below).

Or, better still, leave us a voice message via the magic of SpeakPipe:


Transcript

This transcript was AI generated. It’s not perfect.

Susie: Hello, you’re listening to Wine Blast with me, Susie Barrie, and my husband and fellow Master of wine Peter Richards. Welcome! In this episode, the podcast is going to live up to its name because we have some explosive content, about developments that could change the world of wine forever.

Peter: What an intro!! A proper cliffhanger, you know, with suspense and drama and everything, you know, But I can confirm, this is not to overstate things, you know, in this programme, we have controversy, we have groundbreaking research. We’ve got threats of violence. We’ve got a glimpse of a brave new wine world, you know, and if that wasn’t enough, we’ve got some breaking news for you, too.

Susie: That’s what I call added value! And this show is all about the grapevines, or grape varieties of the future. So the stuff that’s going to be in your glass in 10, 20, 50 years time, and it’s potentially all change. Here is a taster, of what’s coming up:

Nicola Biasi: The future is always changing. We cannot do exactly the same that our grandfathers did. So I think that the only solution for the future is to change the variety. Changing variety, We will keep the quality in our wines.

Riccardo Velasco: We have not explored the potentiality of the grape genome at all. Why stop the exploration? It’s nonsense. Those plants, in some decades, may substitute completely the known wine varieties. And this is what the people, which are very conservative, may be scared about.

Mario Pezzotti: I hope that this innovation can be very useful to save the world of wine. This should not scare people at all.

Peter: Winemaker Nicola Biasi, Dr. Riccardo Velasco and Professor Mario Pezzotti there. We’ll be hearing more from them in due course, as well as some views from Champagne Drappier. These are all people right at the cutting edge of this topic, so their views are gold dust. Plus, we’ll be giving our reactions to all of this, as well as to the wines in question.

Susie: Okay, so let’s start at the beginning. So wine is made from grapevines, right? Typically one species of grapevine, Vitis vinifera, the winemaking vine, of which there are many different varieties, like Chardonnay, Pinot Noir or Cabernet Sauvignon. So far, so good, right?

Peter: Yeah, but also not good. because while wine is glorious and these grapevines and grape varieties are very tasty, these vines have a problem. It’s wine’s dirty secret that to get a healthy crop of grapes, such vines often need a lot of intervention, primarily in the form of antifungus sprays to control diseases like downy mildew, powdery mildew and botrytis bunch rot, particularly in humid, cool or rainy climates like much of Northern Europe.

Susie: In fact, viticultural wine growing has, as the fashionistas would say, an oversized impact in this regard. A recent academic paper noted that while only 5% of the European agricultural area is devoted to grapevines, approximately 70% of all fungicides applied in Europe are used to control fungal diseases in vineyards. Another paper had, wine accounting for 26% of all fungicide and pesticide use in the EU. Now, whatever the exact figure, most wine growers would agree that anywhere between three and 30 sprays per season can be necessary. And that is far from ideal, because.

Peter: Of course, these sprays can pollute, disrupt natural ecosystems and degrade biodiversity. You also need tractors to disseminate them, which means soil compaction and carbon emissions. And on top of this is the risk for human health, both the vineyard workers and those people who live near vineyards.

Susie: And sadly, it’s not as if being organic is necessarily any better. You know, the sulphur, copper and other sprays allowed under organic rules can be less effective than synthetic versions, and so more sprays can be needed, hence more emissions and damage. In short, to make wine as things stand, you need to spray and spraying is not good.

Peter: To up the ante further, the EU has implemented the Green deal, where the goal is to reduce the use of sprays and such like by 50% by 2030. That’s a big deal and, ah, a huge challenge for wine growers in particular. What to do? THEY clamour. You know, change is imperative, change is inevitable. But what will this change be?

Susie: Well, this change may be coming to your wine glass soon because one major solution currently being touted is essentially tinkering with the grapevines themselves to make them more resistant to the main diseases that afflict them. Now, I’m aware that makes it sound easy.

00:05:00

Susie: It isn’t. but there are a couple of ingenious potential solutions currently underway.

Peter: Yeah, one solution is the development of vines that are simply less susceptible to disease. this can be done in two main ways. One is biotech or gene editing, sometimes called assisted evolution or TEA. This is different from GMO or genetic modification, and it’s one we’ll come back to. we’ve got some big news about a landmark new planting that’s just happened in this regard.

Susie: Now, another approach is breeding. Disease resistant vines that have been bred are sometimes called PIWIs which is a slightly unfortunate but also handy acronym of a long and frankly unpronounceable German name.

Peter: You’re not going to give a go?

Susie: No, definitely not.

Peter: Sure, give everyone a laugh, including me.

Susie: I am not. I’m going to go at it.

Peter: Fair enough, fair enough.

Susie: It’s a PIWI and the reason is because, Germany was where these were initially developed and they’re essentially vinifera vines like Chardonnay or Riesling or Sauvignon Blanc that have been crossed so cross pollinated, then developed from seed with another vine species to give them resistance or less susceptibility to these key diseases. Now, this process creates an entirely new grapevine variety.

Peter: Now, historically, hybrids, which is essentially what PIWIs are, had a bad rap when it came to wine American or French hybrids often had a so called odd foxy flavour, and there was a fear they’d somehow corrupt the noble or elite vinifera varieties of Europe. But the development of PIWIs or the new generation of hybrids, came at a time when disease resistance was becoming increasingly important and attitudes had shifted.

Susie: There are a fair few of these PIWIs around now, aren’t there? I mean, hundreds, in fact, we’ve mentioned some on the pod in the past, but you may recognise names like, Solaris, Rondo, Voltis, Vidal, Divico, Souvignier Gris Floreal. And they often crop up in places like Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Languedoc, Canada and northern outposts like the UK and Scandinavia.

Peter: As for the downsides, well, they take a while to develop, about 25 years on average, apparently. plus the criticism often levelled at them is that they just don’t make very nice wine

Susie: Well, as our fellow MW and viticultural consultant Stephen Skelton told us, with PIWIs you trade quality for sustainability. Plus, getting people familiar with a host of new wine names is an unenviable task for producers and marketers, you know, especially given people have had about a millennium to get used to the existing ones. And that’s still frankly, a work in progress, isn’t it?

Peter: Say that again. Which is, you know, it’s untouchable. It’s complex. It’s complex.

Susie: It is.

Peter: But, you know, the latest generation PIWIs are starting to gain traction among wine growers. Ah, plantings are growing, albeit from a small base. they have an increasing number of vocal advocates, some of whom we’re going to be hearing from. And the wines, well, you know, based on our tastings, the best PIWI wines are pretty Decent these days, aren’t they? Yeah, you know, as people get to grips with how best to grow them and make them, which, to be fair, was always going to take time.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. So, so. One advocate of disease resistant vines is Italian winemaker and consultant Nicola Biasi. Nicola grew up in Friuli and worked all over South Africa and Australia before dedicating himself to Allegrini’s estates in Montalcino and Bolgheri for nine years. When he left to be a, consultant winemaker in 2015, he started his own project in Trentino Vin de la Neu, which is one of the top rated wines in the Gambero Rosso guide. Not bad for a PIWI wine he’s also created a producer network of wineries he consults for that are making and promoting disease resistant varieties, which is called Resistenti Nicola Biasi.

Peter: So Nicola initially came to our attention when I attended a seminar he gave in which he said that the only way to meaningfully reduce chemical usage in the vineyards is to use PIWIs or resistant varieties. After tasting his wines and m being really quite impressed, we invited him over to pick his expert brains.

Susie: Nicola stresses the urgency of adopting resistant varieties and maintains that if the right resistant variety is grown in the right place and made in the right way, there is no quality difference with a classic variety. In his view, quality is everything. He says people drink good wines, not sustainable wines.

Peter: he’s actually just bought a vineyard in Mosel in Germany where he’s planted the Johanniter disease resistant variety to blend with the more classic Riesling. But his main focus is northern Italy where he works with these new varieties everywhere from Friuli to even that bastion of tradition, Piedmont. now he’d like to see Italian law change so that PIWIs can be planted in Tuscany where they’re currently banned, and also for them to be allowed in

00:10:00

Peter: the top level DOC and DOCG wine classifications, which is also currently outlawed.

Susie: Now, just to say in this chat you’ll hear gene editing being mentioned. Hold that thought, we will be coming back to it. But you asked him, didn’t you? Do we really need to change varieties?

Nicola Biasi: Yes, we have to change, our varieties because with the traditional varieties in every place of, Italy of Europe, maybe just in the south of Italy not, but, ah, we have to spray many, many times and every time that we go in the vineyards with the tractors, we product CO2 and pollution and this is not good for the environment. With the resistance variety, we can reduce the number of treatments from 15, 20 to 2, 3, 4 or 5. So the reduction is so important.

Peter: So you have done direct comparisons, haven’t you, between vineyards which are next to each other, planted with conventional traditional varieties and resistant varieties. What have you found?

Nicola Biasi: We found that the difference is huge because the CO2 goes down of, 40% and the water footprint goes down of 70. So with, the resistance variety, we can be truly sustainable.

Peter: So in your opinion, if a winery wants to be truly sustainable, it should be planting PIWIs or resistant varieties. Should be planting resistant varieties.

Nicola Biasi: Yes, of course. Today is the best way to put together quality in the glass and truly sustainable. I don’t know if in the future something different could come. And with the network resistant Nicola Biases, today we are focused on the resistance variety, but, we would love to do something different if it is truly sustainable. So today, in my opinion, the resistance variety is the better solution. But if in 10 years will be something better, why not?

Peter: Well, I wanted to ask you about that because there is obviously in Italy at the moment, there’s been some new plantings of Jean edited Chardonnay. Yeah, so some new.

Nicola Biasi: I know from, Trento. Yes.

Peter: From your neck of the woods. Yeah. What’s your opinion of that?

Nicola Biasi: My opinion is, why not? Because I, really believe that, ah, we have to produce quality wines with the better sustainable possible. If we can find a way that is not, dangerous for the human, for the people. Okay, why not? The future is always changing. We cannot, do exactly the same that our grandfather did. We have to do something more because the climate change, because the customers want to drink something different sometimes, and so respect the terroir, respect the tradition, but we have to change. And so everything that can help me or the winers where I’m consulting to make better wines and, be more gentle with the environment. Why not?

Peter: Because the classic criticism in the past of using resistant varieties is you trade quality for sustainability. The perception being that actually these resistant varieties, they’re good for the environment, but actually they taste crap. So what’s your response to that?

Nicola Biasi: In the past, we make, not so good wines from PIWI variety because we didn’t know where plant this variety and how to make the vinification. Because, you know, Chardonnay, all the world works to find a better solution for vinification, for pruning, etc. PIWI variety are new, the resistance variety are new. So we have not enough knowledge. And this is exactly what Resistenti Nicola Biasi is doing with the university, with other, producer, to understand how to make quality wines, because the potential in the wines there is. It’s just up to us.

Peter: And are people ordinary wine lovers? Are they ready for resistant grape varieties?

Nicola Biasi: I would love to say yes, but I’m, going to say no. It’s something that we have to explain is so important because I really believe that, if someone understand what there is behind the label with the resistance variety and in the glass, find a good wine they will buy them. Because if the quality is exactly the same, you cannot say no. I prefer a wine that produce a lot of pollution. No, but, the people doesn’t know about resistance variety.

Peter: So you think the laws will evolve to embrace these varieties and allow them in the wines in the future?

Nicola Biasi: Yeah, of course, they will be part of the future of viticulture. Of course, we are not taking out all the Sangiovese from Montalcino

00:15:00

Nicola Biasi: next year. It will be absolutely wrong because we have to keep the identity of the terroir of the Brunello Montalcino. But, the question that the winemakers, the producer has ah, to do by themselves is if the climate change, continues in this way, what can I do to keep high the quality of my wines? Because, today everybody say, okay, you can plant, at high altitude or you can go to the north. But it’s really, how can I do it? Of course, the theory you can do it. But if my wineries in Montalcino, what I have to do, I sell the vineyards and then move to Austria, probably doesn’t work. So I think that the only solution for the future is to change the variety. Of course we have to change the rule. Because for example, in Montalcino you can use only Sangiovese. but we have to change the rule and change the variety. So changing variety, we will keep the quality in our wines. And why not with a resistance variety that give us the quality? Usually this variety keep the acidity better than traditional variety. And this is good for the climate change because we need acidity in the wines and also for the market that probably today people drink wines lighter than in the past, more fresh and more elegant. And so the acidity is so important. And also the resistance variety gives us something on the top that is the truly sustainable.

Peter: How do you see the future when it comes to Wine? Are we going to be growing just resistant varieties in 100 years time?

Nicola Biasi: No, of course not. But I hope that many, many vineyards, especially in the area where, we have a lot of Rain will be cultivated with the resistance variety. But there are some places where we don’t need them. Could be, I don’t know, some era of Argentina, some areas of the south of Italy, we don’t need them. I’m the first one to say that. But, in a lot of places in the world where we make the viculture, they can make the difference. So we will have a lot of vineyards with, the resistance variety and how I see the future with the vichiculture and winemaking that is more respectful of the environment.

Peter: Nicola, thank you very much indeed.

Nicola Biasi: Thank you.

Peter: So he’s saying that resistant varieties can also be good when it comes to climate change, given, you know, they can have slightly higher acidity, which is often needed in a warming climate.

Susie: Yeah, it’s interesting, isn’t it? I think what’s nice is he’s not dogmatic, he’s just quite pragmatic. Yeah, he is, but he’s pretty clear about the need for change for M. Evolution in wine growing and winemaking, where he’s also quite honest, is how hard it is changing the law to get these varieties accepted and also getting this message across to wine drinkers.

Peter: Yeah, I mean that’s just going to take time, isn’t it? You know, but as he says, if people start to become aware of these issues, I think most drinkers would choose a good wine that’s more sustainable over one that’s, that’s not M. It’s just making that a simple and understandable and clear message and choice.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. And also making sure the wines are really good quality. So we’re going to be recommending a few of Nicolas wines in the end of the show. spoiler alert, they are pretty good. and before that, don’t go away because we’ve got some cutting edge researchers throwing all kinds of funky notions and predictions around by way of brief summary. So far, winemaking vines are being reimagined in an urgent bid to reduce their environmental impact. Disease resistant vines, or PIWIs are being bred and increasingly adopted by forward thinking growers, but they remain, paradoxically, both, somewhat under the radar and controversial.

Peter: One leader in this field is Dr. Riccardo Velasco, Director of the CREA Crea vine and wine Research Centre in Congegliano, so Prosecco country in northern Italy. Now, Riccardo has been involved in plant breeding for more than 30 years and lately he’s been developing an exciting new grape variety for Prosecco, where the classic or traditional variety is called Glera. His new disease resistant take on Glera is called Glaurum, a Glera based hybrid and which he hints may be even better than the original. So I asked him that can the new disease resistant variety ever be better than the original?

Riccardo Velasco: It may happen. It will be rare, but it may happen. In any case, what you’re looking for is a product which do not affect the quality of the well

00:20:00

Riccardo Velasco: known wine

Peter: Because the traditional criticism of PIWIs or resistant varieties is that they taste worse than normal.

Riccardo Velasco: Convention always. What I can say to you is that if you start with 300 plants to make selection, the possibility to get a better plant than a better wine than a mother plant is almost zero. If you start with 10 or 50,000, the possibility to have one or two or three which may be, I want to say better but still high quality, bit different. Okay. I have selected and sent registration to cpvo, the entity that recognised to register a new variety. I sent in Germany because I cannot certificate my own. Obviously the first dota plant of the Glera cross, which is 85% of metabolic profile identical to glera. 85% is a lot, plus six resistant genes. And the 15% which is not identical is close. So I don’t think that this plant, product will affect negatively somehow a Prosecco wine Maybe if it has a little bit more acidity, it may be even better.

Peter: And is Prosecco, a driving force behind these developments?

Riccardo Velasco: Yes, they, they supply money for it.

Peter: So do these plants have a name? Particularly the one, the promising ones?

Riccardo Velasco: Actually we named it Glaurum from Glera Mother and Aurum, which is gold in Lady Glaurum.

Peter: So when might we feasibly be able to taste the first?

Riccardo Velasco: 2028.

Peter: 2028 will be the first wines made from Glaurum?

Riccardo Velasco: No, the first set of plants may be sold to the producers.

Peter: So 2030, 2032, 2030 may be.

Riccardo Velasco: The first wines which if in Italy is promoted the acceptance, to introduce those preview varieties which belong very close to the. To the mother plant. Yes. If they will oppose continuously, I will never see it. It really depends from the politics.

Peter: So that’s breeding. Just very briefly, Riccardo how do you see the future?

Riccardo Velasco: So by using breeding you produce biodiversity and biodiversity is needed. You never know the climate change, where we go. so we must be ready with the good product for different conditions.

Peter: So retaining a focus on biodiversity is therefore the key in all of this, is that right?

Riccardo Velasco: That’s the key. That’s the key word biodiversity, maintaining and also exploring because, clearly we have, done a breeding activity. I mean, as human being, 11,000 years ago we started agriculture, and we have done breeding with the cereals, with horticulture plants. Thousand, thousand years and changing the grain nowadays are, totally different than the grain 100 years ago or 200 years ago. With wine we have stopped more or less of the Roman period or just few years later, maintaining always the same varieties just because we suppose we have reached the top. But we have not explored the potentiality of the grape genome at all. So by even doing other crosses in Vinifera Bivenifera would be interesting. Cabernet Sauvignon is, a daughter plant between Cabernet Franc and Sauvignon. Blanche is not a bad plant. It’s not a bad wine

Peter: It’s all right wine isn’t it?

Riccardo Velasco: If nobody would have been done, we would not have Cabernet, Sauvignon. So why stop the exploration is nonsense.

Peter: And, how much of a reduction in treatments, in sprays, in pollution, therefore, are we talking about when it comes to these new generation of peewees?

Riccardo Velasco: Now we have glaurum in the field since. In production of grape since five years. And clearly in our, experimental fields, we have, glaurum and other dota, other sister plants beside the glera, clearly to compare the production and the phenology and so on. And we, have not treated at all. So we decrease, 10 to 20 times.

Mario Pezzotti: Yeah.

Peter: Ah. So how. Exactly how would. How much would. How many treatments would you. In an average year would Glara need?

Riccardo Velasco: 15 to 20.

Peter: 15 to 20.

Riccardo Velasco: Average to 20. Up to 20.

Peter: Wow. So. So you reduced it by a. By a factor of 10. 10. Wow. Okay. So this very much sounds like the future, no?

Riccardo Velasco: well, I mean, if

00:25:00

Riccardo Velasco: people are, is not scared about the quality and, give to this, new product the same attention that’s been done by all others varieties that are typical of region, I may suppose that this plant may even substitute completely, because if those plants do not affect. Are not affected by fungi and produce a fantastic wine in some decades, they may substitute completely the known, wine varieties. And this is what the people, which are very conservative, may be scared about.

Peter: You can see. Can you see that happening across the wine world, not just in Prosecco.

Riccardo Velasco: I dedicate such, an effort in Prosecco region because I’m working mostly here. But we have done similar things with Sangiovese in Tuscany, with Primitivo in Puglia and we will begin with Barolo and Barbera in Piedmont. So I mean if you never begin, you will never see the results. Then it’s really matter of people that believe in analogy of those plants, the introduction and disciplinary of document. So in France we have already, in Duc, in Champagne already some of the PIWI French wine has already introduced. So I don’t understand why in Italy or better I understand why because there are lobbies which are very conservative. But if big consortium, like Prosecco DOC. Start to fund this type of research and then at the end we’ll produce those products, all the others we follow.

Peter: It’s a brave new world. Riccardo thank you very much indeed.

Riccardo Velasco: You’re welcome. My pleasure. Thank you. To you.

Susie: Okay, so some pretty hefty notions there. Firstly, disease resistant finds may end up being better than ever for a parent in m this case Glara. But it could be Chardonnay or Cabernet. And that is a really incredible thought. You know, also his contention that these varieties may replace conventional ones completely.

Peter: Yeah, now that is quite something to get your head around, isn’t it? you know, I think there’s been a lot of thought and effort behind this development of disease resistant vines for a few years now. Maybe it’s gone a little bit under the radar, you know, but I do think we’re about to see it explode onto the wine scene. you know, Ricardo’s talking about a ten fold reduction in sprays with no effect on quality or actually possibly, probably even better wines and improving biodiversity along the way.

Susie: Yeah. And now that was interesting, wasn’t it? You know, him saying biodiversity is the key. in essence we need to develop a whole load of different kinds of new grapevines to suit different places or meet different challenges. I mean, it’s not just one silver bullet for climate change and sustainability, but a lot of it depends on the politics and wider acceptance by winemakers and the public when some people might just be a bit scared by all of this.

Peter: Yeah. Do you know what? That’s key, isn’t it? I think there’s inevitably going to be some pushback in a sector as conservative as wine producers and wine drinkers. But I do think things are changing. He told me that 10 years ago he was considered a bit of a dreamer or a bit of a nut, but now they’ve made the first wine from Glarum. It’s looking really good. Apparently the big Prosecco players are backing it, it seems. So maybe it’s a sign of things to come.

Susie: Now, one, one other thing you discussed with Riccardo and we want to bring in here is biotech. Now we mentioned this at, the top as an alternative approach to breeding in terms of generating new disease resistant vines. And it’s all to do with gene editing, isn’t it?

Peter: Yeah. Now, I don’t think we need to say this, but I’m going to say anyway, we are not biotech nerds. We are wine nerds. so we’re probably going to oversimplify this, for which apologies, but, but hopefully we get the basics right. Essentially we’re talking about a new technique or technology, this CRISPR Cas9, which can edit the vine’s genome, in this case to switch off the gene that allows the fungus or mildew to recognise the vine as its target and grow or spread.

Susie: Now it’s important, isn’t it here to stress that this is different from GMO or transgenics, in which foreign DNA is inserted here, nothing is added, it’s just part of the vine’s own DNA, the susceptibility gene that is deactivated. So this is DNA free genome editing. It’s a relatively new technology and it’s opening up lots of possibilities.

Peter: Yeah. Now what this produces is effectively a new clone of a classic variety. Now let’s talk clones. to go back a step or two. And at the moment, if you go to a vine nursery, you can buy hundreds of clones of

00:30:00

Peter: Chardonnay, for example, some developed in Burgundy, some in Argentina, some in Australia. Traditional clones are made by taking cuttings from the best performing vines and then reproducing them. So if the vine grower happens to notice one plant yields better than another or grows tastier fruit or is more resistant to mildew, they choose that plant to reproduce.

Susie: But in this method, the new clone of Chardonnay would be a gene edited vine with specific resistance to mildew. So instead of waiting for this mutation to happen by chance and the vine grower noticing it, evolution is sped up in the lab. Hence the name for this new technique, assisted evolution, or TEA. and the results are specific and targeted.

Peter: I quite like tea.

Susie: We could just do tea, afternoon tea.

Peter: Riccardo says he’s a fan of biotech as well as breeding, and he describes biotech as a great opportunity that maybe will appeal to traditionalists who may prefer a Cabernet Sauvignon vine that’s been tweaked for extra resistance rather than a PIWI variety. Ultimately, he says, we’ll need both breeding and biotech to give us A range of choices in the future.

Susie: And that future just got closer because as of 30 September 2024, in a milestone event that has sailed surprisingly under the radar, the first gene edited vines in Europe were planted out in a field in Italy in Valpolicella. Now this potentially game changing vineyard, Chardonnay for what it’s worth, comes courtesy of Professor Mario Pezzotti and his team at the University of Verona, along with its private spin off Edivite, which was founded in 2020.

Peter: Now Mario is a leading figure in this field. he lives in Valpolicella where life and work is intimately connected with the vine. He stresses that his work is not frankenvine stuff, it’s just a more targeted way of speeding up the natural process of mutation and disease resistance. He makes the point that all white wine is the result of a natural mutation. You know wild vines almost always produce dark skinned grapes. And we’re okay with white wine aren’t we?

Susie: Very much okay. Big white wine fans in this household. nevertheless the law is still a challeng. You know Mario has spent a lot of time wrangling with the authorities over restrictions on gene edited or assisted evolution vines being planted out. But his persistence has paid off because in July 2022 the law was amended to allow these trial plantings to go ahead.

Peter: So I asked him to describe what this momentous event meant to him.

Mario Pezzotti: Yeah, that momentous. I should say that it was a very, very emblematic momentum of my life because it’s been 44 years that I’m dreaming to put these plants out of the greenhouse. And the 30th of September we, we were able to plant those plants in a, in, in a field is a bunker is another field because there it’s limited by nets, 2 metre heights. and there is, there are 10 plants within 250 square metres and cameras watching those plants. And you cannot get inside because there is locked, there is a gate but the 30th of September 2024. For my life it’s, I think it’s an emblematic date like the date when my son was born or in very important other day in which you know, when I married my wife.

Peter: And why was that date so emblematic, so important for you?

Mario Pezzotti: Because in this case we were able to do a precise mutation, regenerate the plants and put the seeds plant in the field. And the evaluation in the lab said us that these plants is a resistant to downy media. And we are to, we have to answer to everybody that this plant is also resistant to downy media in the sperm in the fields.

Peter: So what are you hoping for? Are you hoping for no sprays whatsoever? Are you hoping for total resistance?

Mario Pezzotti: When I say it’s resistant, I said I would like to insist that it’s not immune. In this case, these plants are not immune, but there are plants that are resistant to a susceptibility genes. So there is a little infection and we have to control the Lister infection. But this infection is 6, 10 times less than the infection that normally occurs. So you have to. I think we have to verify what it is, but we are predicting that very little spray should be done to avoid also the occurrences of other disease.

Peter: And at the moment you’re developing something with specific reference to downy mildew. what about powdery mildew, botrytis, these other kinds

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Peter: of, disease.

Mario Pezzotti: We rushed to have these plants in the field because we wanted to tell to everybody that this is possible and we made it. But we have indeed, I think we have now 10 different varieties and they are, knocked down for genes susceptibility genes for, downy and powdery media both.

Peter: So which other varieties might you be able to plant in the future on a trial basis, of course.

Mario Pezzotti: Here you can think about the Prosecco people. They are, getting crazy for glera. and glera is a big market for the nurseries. So Glera, Chardonnay, Cabernet, Sangiovese, Nebbiolo, the Italian varieties and the international. So I think we have a list of, 10, varieties that are on the pipeline.

Peter: So you’re hoping to be able to plant some more of these trials out very soon. Soon.

Mario Pezzotti: Let’s say that it’s. The difficulties are not the plants are the authorizations.

Peter: So let’s talk about that. You’ve obviously fought hard to get this initial, authorization. Do you think the law will be evolving soon, to allow. To permit these varieties not just to be grown outside secure facilities, but then, you know, to be able to. Made into wine and sold.

Mario Pezzotti: I don’t have the glass ball, as you can imagine. But we are hoping all the scientists working all over Europe, we are hoping that in one year, one year and a half, this proposal that was almost accepted by the European Committee is going to be pushed further and approved by the. We are thinking about the Danish presidency of the Commission. I should say that, please think about that innovation in plants. It’s very slow because plants, they have their biology and ah, we people Working with grape, we know that takes years to have the grape ripened, five years to have the right grapes to make the wine all these things. But we need to be released, we need to have plants in the fields as much as possible. And also we need to have also the a protection of those plants by you know, this is an innovation that comes from ah, years, years of work in the lab and competencies that should be, needs to be protected.

Peter: Are you fearful that there may be reprisals, that there may be you know, action taken by people who think this is dangerous?

Mario Pezzotti: You know, I hope that you know, that there won’t be any vandalism, but who knows, you know there is a room for everybody in this world. So there are also people don’t drinking wine So I don’t complain.

Peter: That’s scandalous. but for you just to be very clear, this is totally safe technology that doesn’t, there’s no risk of over spill, of outspill, of contamination of as you say, you use the word Frankenvines. There’s no risk. This is safe, this technology that you’re using.

Mario Pezzotti: It’s a technology in which we can tell after the mutation operated by the machinery. We do the sequence again, we resequence and we cheque if the mutation affects other place of the genomes or not. We cheque that it’s only that mutation and nothing else. No off targets problems. So this is ongoing stuff that for us now the proof of concept is done. For instance, let me say, do you know many Sangiovese clones are sold in Italy? Have you any idea? 340. So if you ask to the Rauscedo nursery or many other nurseries, what is inside this clone? What did you change at the genomic level? What they wouldn’t know exactly what happened to the genome or the epigenome. Nobody knows it. In this case we know exactly that. We did one single mutation for one gene, two gene, three gene, four genes and we didn’t touch any other place of the genome. This should not scare people at all.

Peter: Now you said this was an emblematic moment for you, planting these plants out, extrapolating, leaving your scientific rigour to one side for the moment and indulging your human emotions. What do you hope long term might be the result of this?

Mario Pezzotti: I hope that this wine world, which is quite traditional, will start to think that some innovation can be very useful to save this, the tradition and save the world of wine Otherwise can be wiped off by many other things. So I think innovation is not an antagonistic process of tradition.

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Mario Pezzotti: Innovation is the process in which the best tradition is protected and safe for the next generation.

Peter: There’s, a great expression, isn’t there, that tradition is innovation that’s worked in terms of timeline. You know, if everything were to go as per your dreams, government, legislation, public acceptance, grower wine trade, the wine world acceptance. When might we see wines made from these kind of vines?

Mario Pezzotti: Five years.

Peter: Five years, that’s not very long!

Mario Pezzotti: Five years, our, you know, planning. It’s five years from now.

Peter: So you think we might be able to see wines from this technology available on sale in five years?

Mario Pezzotti: Yeah. The most restriction is to the registration of the clones. In Italy it takes five years. But maybe we can be, you know, we can shorten this phase.

Peter: Mario, thank you very much indeed.

Mario Pezzotti: Thank you very much to you.

Susie: Difficult to know where to start with that, but five years for wines made from potentially game changing new super vines or bionic vines and to be available in a shop near you.

Peter: It’s quite a thought, isn’t it? As is, you know, the notion they might help save the world of wine and he did add that PIWIs were also important in this regard. You know, he said this approach wasn’t antagonistic to PIWIs and wouldn’t render them redundant. there’s room for everybody, he said. So a bit like Ricardo’s views there. Taken together, these developments could though change the face of wine as we know it.

Susie: So we’ll have to report back on how those trial plantings go. Meantime, we wanted to whiz off to a final pit stop in Champagne because all of the Italian experts we spoke to pointed to the fact that illustrious French appellations like Champagne and Bordeaux are allowing PIWIs or resistant fines. We’re talking the likes of Sauvignac, Floreal, Souvignier Gris and Vidoc Noir in Bordeaux and then Voltis in Champagne.

Peter: These are still officially trials for the moment, with limits on how much can be planted or included in any blend. But initial take up seems to have been relatively enthusiastic. so we spoke to Hugo Drappier, a, ninth generation winemaker and viticulturist at Champagne House Drappier, which farms organically and which has made a point of planting all of the permitted grape varieties in Champagne, which now totals eight, including the PIWI Voltis.

Susie: Drapier’s small 0.4 of a hectare Voltis vineyard was planted in 2023 as soon as regulations allowed around Hugo’s house m its early days. They made one magnum in 2024. So quality in the bottle is yet to be properly assessed by them. But change is happening Now. I asked Hugo for his take on Voltis.

Hugo Drappier: It’s, very interesting to see how much is resistance. The vigour, the resistance to the mildew and oidium is very, very impressive, because being organic as we are, we are very used to see the disease and how the vines react and what the disease can affect the vines. And when you’re working on the vines like this with, without any, using any, fungicide and you see how much it’s resistant is very impressive. For the moment, the grapes seems to be, quite big, tends to be quite productive compared to the variety that we used to have in Champagne. and the ripening is light, very light compared to what we have. So for the six kilogrammes of voltage we had this year on our 0.4 hectares, we harvest it 15 days after the rest of the harvest.

Susie: In terms of, in terms of reducing any sprays that you use, I know you’re organic, but what are you, what are you anticipating in terms of a reduction in having to treat the vines in any way at all?

Hugo Drappier: We can say that the reduction is total. We can, be happy to, at that point to work with this variety without any spraying.

Susie: What would you normally spray?

Hugo Drappier: Being organic, it’s very, valuable compared to the condition of the year. So, for the easy, the most easy vintage, I would say it’s between six to eight spraying a year. But for the very, very difficult year, like this year, for example, it’s more than 20, 25, 30 spraying.

Susie: Now, some people might be quite surprised that the region as traditional as Champagne is allowing hybrids to be planted.

Hugo Drappier: The first region in France to have, as a, appellation controller, to have a hybrid cepage.

Mario Pezzotti: Yes.

Susie: And what are your thought on that?

Hugo Drappier: I’m not, I will not say. That is. Maybe the future will be in these grapes. I think it’s just one step forward, looking for the next generation. And we, we have to evolve the

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Hugo Drappier: climate, the people, waiting, the consumption, the climate. Everything is changing around the world. The thinking of the wine has been since 150 years, focus on only 10 French and international grapes that will last forever. I think it’s, it’s very, false. We have to think about the future and this one will be one of the tools.

Susie: And if you, if you talk now just, just finally about the idea that, adopting Voltis is as kind of a stepping Stone, do you think the future of wine is going to be PIWIs or conventional vines or a mixture of the two or something completely different?

Hugo Drappier: Yeah, difficult to, to answer this question. We don’t know. But my own opinion, I would say that this kind of grapes will be part of the future, will be our hope, will be part of the diversity, because it helps to fight against the big problem we have for the climate and the future. So I’m sure it would be part of it. I hope it will be not, 100% of the future of the grapes and will still be able to farm our classic and very important grapes like the Pinot we have, even if it’s, it’s sensitive to disease. I just hope I cross Finca that in the future. I don’t know, not maybe in 100 years. Exactly. Like, we have with the porte-greffe, the grafted grapes due to Philoxera, that will still have the possibility to have both and work on it. And this diversity is nice to have it.

Susie: Hugo, thank you so much.

Mario Pezzotti: You’re welcome.

Peter: So again, a potentially massive reduction in sprays from 30 to 0. you know, and it’s really interesting to see that comparison with organic treatments, isn’t it? As we discussed earlier. And also a recognition that change is imperative, and it needs to be impressive embraced, you know, even in someone like Champagne.

Susie: Yeah. And just to be clear, the, the first possible time these grapes could be in a Champagne on our shelves would be 2028 to 2030. And initially it’ll be limited to a maximum of 10% of the blend. But it sounds like the Voltis wines will have good acidity, which is what you want in Champagne.

Peter: Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, so much to take on board in this episode. I know. but I know what we need to do before we draw things to a clip. Clothes to help in that regard, and that’s just enjoy some delicious wines. Tasting recommending just to take the edge off things.

Susie: I think we might have earned it. So. So, yeah, we’ve been tasting lots of PIWI wines recently. some do still have that, wet dog or stewed nettle or even plastic doll character. And some are just bad. But as Nicola says, you know, that can be true of conventional wines too. generally speaking, though, we’ve actually been impressed, haven’t we, by the new generation of PIWI wines we have.

Peter: And I’ve got one here. I’m gonna go straight in the 2 Tesco Finest Floreal 2023. It’s £8 or actually £6 on offer. Now, if ever there was proof of concept, this is it. The UK’s biggest retailer sticking a PIWI wine at a fighting price point in their posh own label range. You know, that’s a statement of intent. and it’s absolutely spot on, isn’t it? It’s clean, it’s fresh, it’s kind of pure peachy appley. It’s just really, really easy going. It’s gentle, refreshing. You know, if Pinot Grigio is your bag, tuck into this. It’s also, I noticed on the bottle, relatively low alcohol too, 11%. So, you know, boom, what is not to like?

Susie: Now, next up is a good value rosé, the Esprit artisan Souvignier gris 2023, made by Foncalieu. and it’s 10 to 13 pounds. And what you’ve got here is classic berry fruit, some apple rind, dried herb aromas. It’s dry, it’s got some nice texture, sort of plummy warmth. It’s good with food. And again, you know, good value. Spot on.

Peter: Just a shame about the naughty clear bottle, isn’t it? Anyway, let’s move on. I want to give a couple of wines from Nicola’s Stable a shout out. First, his Renitens 2022. It’s a blend of eight resistant varieties and it’s very sort of yeasty and leesy and meaty. It’s almost like a sort of shabbly on the nose and then very textured and stony on the palette. It’s very classy. And then also the Divento 2022 from Veneto. This is an O blend of Bronner and Johanniter That’s nutty, creamy. It’s sort of lemony and succulent and complex, isn’t it? So, you know, you can do this more serious oaky style of white with PIWIs too.

Susie: Absolutely, yeah. And, finally, two cheeky reds, the La Columbette Cabernet Noir 2022, which has got nice bright, brambly aromas. And then a sort of juicy, herby, plummy palette. it’s not the most serious, but it’s light and, and juicy and very coughable. And then the Sauvage Cabernet Cortis 2022 from Bordeaux no less.

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Susie: A bit more funky and firm, but still very satisfying. Both perfect Tuesday night quaffers, dare I say it?

Peter: Dare away. right, time to wrap things up. by way of, of closing summary, the world of wine looks set for a generational change. the demands of sustainability mean fruit from a new breed of vines is coming to our glasses. The result of innovative breeding and possibly gene editing, if regulations allow. As for how well these wines will go down with us wine drinkers, only time will tell.

Susie: Now we’ll put all the wine details and links on our website. Show notes. Thanks to our interviewees, Nicola Biasi, Riccardo Velasco, Mario Pezzotti and Hugo Drappier. And thanks to you for listening. Until next time, cheers.

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