Summary

Some people say you need loads of different kinds of wine glasses.

Others say you need just one kind (known as, ‘a universal’).

There’s money, reputation, even relationships on the line here.

So what’s the answer?!

In this episode we share some significant new research by Jackie Ang MW, hot off the press, that answers two key questions.

Firstly, do different wine glasses have an impact on how you perceive and rate the same wine?

Secondly, which work better: ‘universal’ wine glasses, or grape-variety-specific glasses?

We also hear strong views from two big hitters in the wine glass world: 11th-generation Austrian glassmaker Maximilian Riedel and renowned wine writer Jancis Robinson, co-creator of the ‘Jancis’ glass.

And of course we share our views on the matter, to help guide you through a subject that can be as headache-inducing as a night on the fine wine.

Along the way we touch on golf clubs, blindfolds, jet engines, shoe collections,  Marie Kondo – and how a measuring tape could help you save money…

Starring

• Jancis Robinson MW OBE – and her Jancis Robinson Collection
• Maximilian Riedel – Riedel Wine Glass Company
• Jackie Ang MW – Cherwell Wine & Spirits
• Susie & Peter

Our Favourite Wine Glasses

Here are some of our all-time favourite wine glasses (including one which we use for water, not pictured).

For reference, they’re listed from left to right in the order they appear in the picture below.

• Riedel English Sparkling Wine (Veloce range)
• The Jancis Robinson glass
• Zalto Universal
• Zalto Burgundy
• Riedel O Cabernet/Merlot (for water)

Links

• Here’s a link to Jackie Ang’s MW Research Paper: Are Universal Glasses Truly Universal? It’s well worth a read (and not too long). You can download the paper freely from the IMW website once you’ve agreed to their terms of use.
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Transcript

This Wine Blast transcript was AI generated. It’s not perfect.

Susie: Hello and welcome to Wine Blast! And we have a BIG question for you today: do you need more than one significant other in your life? And when I say significant other, I am of course talking about a wine glass.

Peter: I wasn’t sure where you were going with that one! So I’m slightly relieved… Anyway, I’ll try to avoid getting myself into hot water. I’m just going to move on here. And so, yes, this is indeed an episode about wine glasses, and whether one size really can fit all. Here’s a taster of what’s coming up.

Maximilian Riedel: Open your shoe closet and ask yourself the question, do I need that many pairs of shoes? To unlock the secret of wine, you need the right wine glass. How much effort goes into making wine? And why just spoil all of that by using one glass that suits all?! It does not exist.

Jancis Robinson: I just firmly believe that my glass really flatters wine. It just makes the wine express itself to the max. And that’s enough for me. Every night when I go to the glass cupboard and bring out my glasses. whatever I’m tasting, I think, oh, great. You know, I’ve got the key here.

Susie: Austrian glass maker Maximilian Riedel and wine writer Jancis Robinson there, I think it’s fair to say, coming from rather different viewpoints in the big wine glass debate! Now, we’ll be hearing more from them in due course. also from Jackie Ang, a Singapore based master of wine whose brand new research, hot off the press, has provided some intriguing answers to long standing questions on this contentious topic. he’s been looking at whether it’s better to have a range of glasses to suit different wines or grape varieties or just one good all rounder., what’s known as a universal glass.

Peter: Yes. Jackie’s MW research paper was entitled. You ready for this? Hang on to your seats. ‘Are universal glasses, Truly universal? An investigation into whether glassware shape affects perceptions of red and white table wines made from international varieties. and it does contain some fascinating findings and conclusions which are relevant to all of us wine drinkers.

Susie: Yeah. Now, we have touched on glasses before. On the pod, we asked, are you serving wine all wrong? back in July 2020. And featured Master Sommelier Laura Rhys and hotelier Robin Hutson giving their views on the subject as well as our own top tips. plus, we also fielded a listener question specifically on this dilemma in an April 2020 episode, to which I responded as follows: ‘I’d rather have one universal glass that works for any wine and have lots of them. You can be just as Happy with one carefully chosen glass as a whole load of different ones.’

Peter: So the key question is, have your views evolved since then? and I think they have…

Susie: I think they might have done.

Peter: So we’re going to get into that. Certainly. You know, our glass racks and cupboards tell a story. Too much of a story, I think. In that episode. In that episode five years ago, I did do a glass census, didn’t I?

Susie: I remember you counting,

Peter: And I stopped counting after I reached 46 different kinds of glasses. Not glasses, you’ve got hundreds of those, but different kinds of glasses. I’ve been too scared to do a recap this time.

Susie: Yeah, yeah.

Peter: But it will be more, I think.

Susie: It might be. And of course it will be intriguing to hear from our esteemed guests to see if that changes anything too. so let’s get on with it and let’s start with a question. I think it’s fair to say we all love wine, but it can be quite complicated as a subject. So do we really need to complicate our lives even further by making the subject of wine glasses complicated, too?

Peter: Great question. And I think that absolutely goes to the heart of this issue. You know, what we’re going to try to resolve, or at least provide some answers to some perspectives on, you know, wine is a delicious liquid that comes in many different styles. It can be expensive and worthy of our time, care and attention. You need something to drink it from. What’s the best vessel to use?

Susie: Yeah. And unless you’re of the Viking drinking horn persuasion or have a penchant for chalices, this is. You do probably. Oh, goodness, you do. but this is essentially, for most of us, a decision about what kind of glass to choose. And you could go cheap and cheerful, showing a, sort of a merry middle finger, as it were, to the snootier element Of the wine establishment. But then you try out a really fine, elegant wine glass with a tall, slender stem, a spacious bowl and that delicate tapered rim and. And there’s no turning back.

Peter: Absolutely. I mean, we had a lovely friend around recently, didn’t we, who burst into tears when we gave him a wine out of one of our finest wine glasses…

Susie: He does burst into tears quite regularly.

Peter: Well, yeah, but he still, you know, when we gave. It

00:05:00

Peter: was one of our very finest glasses and he just kind of responded in kind. So on one level, you know, I’m afraid, yes, we wine lovers do need to engage with the complex world of wine glasses if we really want to maximise our drinking pleasure. because you know, as we can attest both professionally and personally, having a good wine glass makes a massive difference to your wine experience. So, you know, it makes sense.

Susie: It does. But then I’m afraid more mundane issues come into play, don’t they? I’m sorry about this, but you know, good wine glasses don’t come cheap. And unless you’re some sort of superhero, you’re going to break some meaning. replacements are going to be necessary and then there’s how best to wash them. It’s not straightforward. And then what about storage? You know, none of us have limitless cupboard or rack space. So there are other issues, aren’t there?

Peter: Very, very good and real, real issues. Absolutely. So, you know, historically, not much thought was given to the functional dynamics or multi sensorial impacts of wine glasses. But then in 1958 the Riedel family of glass makers pioneered the concept of glasses designed to suit different grape varieties, from Chardonnay to Pinot Noir to Cabernet Sauvignon and beyond. Riedel have been tireless promoters of what might be termed the Stemware Doctrine, conducting workshops all around the world to illustrate, demonstrate the importance of good glasses to good wine.

Susie: Since then things have evolved. You know, other wine glass producers have risen to prominence. you’ve got Zalto to Zwiesel, Denver and Liely, Spiegelau, Kvetna, Lehman, Nude and Beyond. There are now glasses selling for over 120 pounds a pop. there are glasses made using ion shielding technology, glasses modelled on jet engines that aerate your wine differently depending on which direction you swirl it.

Peter: Yeah, Riedel themselves have developed and refined their offering By our rough count. My rough count and my counting is, is notorious. But I did try, I just spent a lot of time on this. I think they now offer something like different 17 different wine glass ranges, including handmade and machine made. So you can get a Wine Wings Nebbiolo or a Super Legero Hermitage or even, I love this one, a high performance champagne glass in pink. Oh, do you like my glasses to be high performance in pink? in pink. and, and, and now you met up with Maximilian Riedel, didn’t you, of the 11th generation of the family when he was over in the uk?

Susie: I did. Now to be, to be clear, we did this interview a few years ago now and when Riedel was, was actually developing a glass for English sparkling wine, which, ah, we now have in our extensive wine collection that we’ve added to our collection more on this in due course. but funnily enough, one of Max’s earliest crusades, as he terms it, was to develop better glasses for champagne than flutes or coupes. Anyway, in our chat, I asked him whether we really need a different glass for every wine style or grape variety. Wouldn’t our lives be simpler if we just had one glass for everything?

Maximilian Riedel: To answer the question, number one, yes, we need a glass. Why? Because whoever has experienced a Riedel workshop has put his nose into a glass of wine that is suited for a specific grape variety. You can’t go back. The concept was developed through two generations with the help of the wine industry. Could you drink any wine from any glass? Yes, you can. But you’re missing out. It’s not the experience that you should have and wine has to offer so much, but it needs a stage and the real glass is that stage.

Susie: I know that you have that. Ah, it’s a very good argument. But there are people who would say. There’s a lot of marketing spin goes with this. It’s very expensive to have different wines for different glasses for each grape variety or wine. How do you answer that?

Maximilian Riedel: Well, open your shoe closet and ask yourself the question, do I need that many pairs of shoes? Well, different occasions call for different shoes. And the same is with wine. Wine is not an inexpensive product. Wine is being produced nowadays around the world. It comes with quality and it comes with. With expectations. And to unlock the secret of wine, you need the wine glass. I know that there are many people who criticise us for this, but they have not gone through one of our workshops. And I know that there are some famous people in the wine industry who just look for the easy way out. And, I think that’s unfair towards what is being produced in the vineyards, how much effort goes into making wine. And why just spoil all of that by

00:10:00

Maximilian Riedel: using one glass that suits all? It does not exist. It’s like the game of golf. You know, you play your nine to 18 holes and for every occasion you need a different club there. You do it. Why wouldn’t you do it for wine, which is very pleasant? And, you don’t have to keep all the glasses at home. Most people have their favourites and that’s what you should go for.

Susie: And if you did have to choose one of your glasses that works best for a wide range of great varieties of wines, is there one that you would choose?

Maximilian Riedel: No.

Susie: Fair enough.

Maximilian Riedel: At the end, I want to give people a choice and that’s what people want. They want a choice.

Susie: Max, can you just Explain to me and to our listeners what the difference is between a machine made glass and a handmade glass.

Maximilian Riedel: I’m promoting machine made because there are no more glass makers to be found. Nobody wants to work in a factory. We have to find a solution. And my technicians are probably the best in the industry and we found the solution. What is the difference between a handmade and a machine made glass? The way it’s being produced. That’s the answer. There is no better or worse. The machine made glass is more on the precision. And when we talk about fine tuning our instruments, our glasses for wine, it’s all about precision. So to me, the machine made glass does a much better job when we zoom in on enjoyment and perfection. But of course, handmade comes with storytelling, comes with, the fact that you have human hands, labour involved. Of course it comes with a much higher price point, but in terms of functionality there is no difference.

Susie: So if I walked into a factory and you are making glasses by hand, and then I walked into a factory that’s making them by machine, what would I see that’s different?

Maximilian Riedel: Everything. Handmade, You have, people making the product. You see the people in action. Please come and visit us in Kufstein, Austria. The factory is open for anybody who wants to see it, who wants to explore how we produce our, beautiful decanters there, but also how we make our handmade glasses. The machine factories are closed. You can’t get in because everything is top secret. There is the advantage of technology. You can’t buy or purchase a, machine to make glass. You have to develop it yourself. So there’s a huge difference.

Susie: So one thing I have to ask you, you know, your life is dedicated to glass. Do you have any top tips for how not to break glasses and particularly when you’re washing and drying them? Because we seem to break glasses the entire time.

Maximilian Riedel: Well, if you’re really in love with wine, then you should get yourself a dishwasher that is made to wash glasses and decanters in specific racks. So if you like to host, you have a big family, you like to share wine with, friends and family, or if you’re in the wine trade, it’s a one time investment in a good dishwasher, a professional dishwasher, and it will pay off in the long run.

Susie: No hand washing then?

Maximilian Riedel: Well, hand washing always takes place in the wrong time. You’re in a rush, you had too much wine, emotions, fly high. That’s when glassware breaks.

Susie: Max Riedel, thank you so much.

Maximilian Riedel: Thank you for Having me. I appreciate it.

Peter: I think I’m the professional dishwasher in this family, aren’t I?

Susie: Not sure you’re professional!!

Peter: No, I’m not professional. I’m amateur. An amateur dishwasher. That’s very, very true. I’m also probably the person who’s had too much wine, who’s in a rush, and whose emotions are flying high. I think if I put my hand up to that one too. But, yeah, I mean, this probably touches back on. On the wise advice that we’ve had and which we’ve. We’ve dispensed on the pod a few times. Never wash your glasses after using them. Always do it the next day.

Susie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the dishwasher thing, though, this is interesting. I mean, you can obviously buy a glass washer, but seriously, who’s really going to do that? I mean, who really has the space or budget for that? And then, although lots of glasses say they’re dishwasher proof, when you read the small print, you need to do them on specific cycles and short and cool is usually, usually best, and then not have other things in there with them, like greasy pots and pans. You also need to calibrate the machine to where you live and get the salt and rinse aid right, you know, all that kind of thing. So I’m guessing whatever the glass makers say, the reality is that most of us do end up painstakingly washing them by hand.

Peter: Yeah. On the subject of cleaning, I remember going to one of the big Riedel workshops hosted by, Max a few years back. It was a great show. You know, lots of drama and theatrics and antics, filling this. I remember this moment. He filled this incredibly swirly MC Escher kind of style decanter,

00:15:00

Peter: and then holding it upside down, you know, and the wine didn’t actually come out because of the design. So quite, quite fancy. But I loved the moment when one. That doesn’t make any sense one word. It doesn’t until you see it. And then. And then one lady, sort of the audience bravely piped up, to ask him how on earth he would clean that sort of thing, which I thought was the perfect practical riposte. And Max, without missing a beat, he is the sort of consummate performer. He said he shot back: in the bath, madam, naturally.

Susie: So when you say about these workshops, you know, what did you think of it?

Peter: Yeah, it was intriguing, I guess. You know, it is a show. It is a. And a compelling one at that. You know, he is this amazing Host and showman. You try a range of wines out of a dizzying number of glasses, including incidentally, a plastic cup, which is what you start with, which does illustrate the basic point quite well. In essence, you know, you do appreciate the difference between the glasses, which is the main message, and you, you can of course choose which kind of glass you like personally. But you know, I wasn’t, I have to say I wasn’t totally sold on all the logic, including one of their big things, which is the way the glass delivers the liquid onto your palate, fundamentally changing the way you perceive the wine. Personally, I don’t buy into that. You know, I’ve tried it. I did it during the workshop, I’ve done it since. I’ve tried getting the wine in different areas from different glasses. I don’t do it. You know, I do think the lip of the glass influences things, but not in the way it enters your palate and the way you taste it as a result.

Susie: Yeah. And I mean, and it frankly, it’s not always the case that, each individual glass seems to be the absolute best for the particular wine it’s designed for.

Peter: No…

Susie: Anyway, we’re going to come back to this, but in the meantime, I wanted to, I wanted to pick up on something else Max said about machine versus handmade glass. You know, what are the differences? How important are they?

Peter: Yeah, it’s an intriguing one this, isn’t it? I mean, the logic has always been that machine made glasses are a little bit more, more, chunky and sort of clunky.

Susie: Heavier. Yeah, yeah.

Peter: in our experience they’ve tended to be exactly that little bit heavier, perhaps often with slightly thicker stems and perhaps, lips, which does influence the feel of the glass. Whereas handmade can often just be that little bit finer.

Susie: Yeah, I mean, I do think that often remains the case. You know, Zaltos, for example, are exclusively handmade and are super fine, which is partly why we like them. But from what I understand, the machines have come on a lot lately. Ah. And what I hear from experts is people are moving more to machine made. And there’s also, of course, the price dynamic. You know, machine made glasses are usually much cheaper. I mean, sometimes half, well, quite often half the price. And the idea is they’re a bit more durable, which particularly of course suits a restaurant setting.

Peter: Yeah, I mean, you know, we’ve got no dogmatic preference, have we? You know, it would be a great shame to lose the artisan sort of glass blowing skills entirely. So you’d hope there’s always A place for that somewhere. But I guess that will probably end up being more and more niche as the machines improve, as you say. and if the glasses can still be as good but slightly more affordable, then that’s an overall win too.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. And as for the idea that one glass that suits all does not exist, we’ll be coming on to that. but time I think to take a quick breath and then we’re straight back with Jackie Ang’s groundbreaking research and Jancis Robinson’s considered views as we try to make sense of all this. To recap so far, a good wine glass is not just beautiful, it’s also functional, helping you enjoy wine better. But do we need a variety of different wine glasses to properly enjoy all our, different wines? Max Riedel thinks so and his company specialises in providing plenty of glasses for you to choose from. But there are others who take a different view…

Peter: and that’s what we’re going to come on to now. first up, the latest research shedding new light on this topic. Jackie Ang is a Singapore based pharmaceutical scientist, who’s also a wine educator with Cherwell Wines and Spirits. He holds a DPhil in Medical Sciences from Oxford University and an MA in Pharmacology from Cambridge University. what’s more, he qualified as a Master of Wine in February 2025 and his research paper to earn that title about whether so called universal wine glasses do actually work in practise.

Susie: Now Jackie was actually looking at two things. Firstly, whether glassware shape affects people’s perceptions of wines. In other words, do wines taste different out of different shapes and sizes of wine glass? And secondly, how do universal or one size fits all glasses perform when compared directly to grape variety specific glasses? And his findings were intriguing, weren’t they?

Peter: They were indeed. No spoilers just yet. But, just to explain the methodology, this was a very rigorous and statistically significant study. Much more rigorous than our MW research papers were…

Susie: To say, I’m afraid. It probably was. Yes, yes, yes, frighteningly

00:20:00

Susie: so.

Peter: It cost Jackie north of £10,000, around £6,000 or $7,500. He, recruited 100 volunteers in Singapore, largely alumni of his. So people who are engaged in wine but not overly so, you know, mostly WSET level two, but not experts, or in the wine trade. And he asked them to do the test blindfolded, to remove preconceptions and visual associations around the glasses.

Susie: Yeah, so this had the potential to get quite messy, didn’t it? Now, just to explain Jackie chose four different glasses, two from Riedel, which he says, and I quote, dominates the fine glass market, so it’s only natural to use them. Fair enough. He chose the Riedel Vinum Riesling glass and the Vinum New World Pinot Noir glass. He then chose two universal style glasses, the handmade Zalto Universal, which we’ve talked quite a bit about, and the machine made Gabriel Glas Standart. He also used four, a Mosel Riesling and a Pouilly Fuissé for the whites, and then a New Zealand Pinot Noir and Chilean Cabernet Sauvignon for the reds. So each participant tried the four wines out of all four glasses and rated them for aromatic intensity and appeal. So aromatics and then flavour, intensity and appeal. So the taste and texture.

Peter: Now, to say this paper piqued our interest is a huge understatement. so we set up a zoom chat with Jackie as soon as we could. now, one thing that does get mentioned in passing is the D ratio of wine glasses. to explain, this is the ratio between the widest part of the wine glass bowl and the opening diameter of the glass at the top. In other words, a larger D ratio tends to indicate a more voluminous glass. The one with the highest D ratio in this study was the Riedel New World Pinot Noir glass, for example. and the one with the lowest was the Riedel Riesling glass, the smallest glass in the experiment.

Susie: Now, I asked Jackie why he chose this particular study for his research paper.

Jackie Ang: Well, you’ve got two conflicting viewpoints in the glass industry. I wouldn’t call it the wine industry, it’s really the glass industry. So there’s one site that says that, oh, you need glasses for every different varietal or every different style of wine. So, I mean, the most famous of this is Riedel, which has varietal specific glasses for just about anything you can think of. But of course, there are other, glass makers that have tried that as well. And then you’ve got the other side. They are arguing that you really only need one glass for all wines, so that’s your universal glass. So, as a scientist, the first thing I think about is, okay, so what is the difference between these glasses? And it turns out that it’s all about glassware shape, glassware size. So that’s where the conception of this research paper came from.

Susie: So just describe as briefly as you can, what are the results and what conclusions do you draw from them?

Jackie Ang: There was a clear preference for the universal glasses in Three out of the four wines. So for the Riesling, the Pouilly Fuissé and the Pinot Noir, what happened was the universal wines all gave a much higher average score or significantly higher average score as compared to either grape varietal specific glass. And this is the interesting bit, because when it came to the Riesling, you would expect the Riesling glass to have done better, because that’s a bridal specific glass. It did not. And same goes with the New World Pinot Noir glass. When the New World Pinot Noir was tasted, and it was the case that universal glasses did better as well in that particular wine. So the only wine where all the glasses were basically equal was the Cabernet Sauvignon.

Susie: So a couple of questions. Was there a universal glass of the two that was deemed better? And were there any differences, say, between reds and whites, in terms of how well the different glasses performed?

Jackie Ang: Yes. Yes. So the Zalto did outperform the Gabriel, but not by much. And, only in one of the wines. In the other three wines, it wasn’t that much of a difference between the two universal glasses. The scores were, much closer together between the universal glasses as compared to between any universal glass versus any grape variety glass, grape varietal specific glass. And the difference is a lot more pronounced when it came to white wines as compared to red wines. So for the white wines, there was definitely more of a difference between the two types of glasses. there could be many reasons for that. I mean, that comes back to how the experiment was conducted. Perhaps that may have caused the issue. Or it could be simply that the red wines had more flavour to start with, so the difference in perception wasn’t so obvious.

Susie: So the universal glasses were better overall than the grape variety specific glasses when it came to, aromas, and flavours. Now, I know your tasters were blindfolded,

00:25:00

Susie: but while that allows for tasters to experience, as you’ve described, the weight and feel of the glass using their sense of touch, what it obviously doesn’t allow for is the full aesthetic response of tasters to the glasses, including their visual response. How important do you feel the aesthetics of glasses are to the drinking experience, both in terms of touch and sight?

Jackie Ang: Actually, very, very important. This is research that’s been done. It’s been done by a professor called Charles Spence, who is in the University of Oxford, and I totally believe it. And the reason why is because any sort of interaction in the environment by a human being is multi sensorial. So the only time it becomes less multisensorial is if you knock out one or more of the senses, and that’s where the blindfolding comes in. We tried to knock out as much as we could the sense of sight, so we could focus on the aromas and flavours. But of course, there is a reason why people gravitate towards glasses that they closely associate with certain wine. For example, the marketing of, certain glasses are, inextricably linked to certain styles of wine. For example, Burgundy glasses, which are very, very large, with huge bowls and a large D ratio, which means the ratio between the bowl and the rim of the glass. And they have massive volume as well. And of course, the marketing spiel is that these glasses can enhance the aromatic experience, the sensual experience of any Burgundy wine, or at least any Burgundy red. Okay. So people that have read this, say in Wine Spectator or Decanter or, you know, any marketing material would tend to have this preconceived, notion that the Burgundy glass is actually best for Burgundy because of the reasons given in the marketing material. And that sticks. That definitely sticks because the next time they go and drink a Burgundy, they’re going to try it from their glass and if the Burgundy wine is any good, they’re going to have a good experience. Very, few people will go and take the same Burgundy wine and then pour it into six different glasses or something like that and then taste them all at the same time. And even if they did, they would be biassed towards the original Burgundy glass in the first place because of what they’ve read earlier.

Susie: Yeah. And what about budget as well? Obviously some glasses are cheaper than others, which must be a consideration for anyone buying new glasses.

Jackie Ang: So the Zalto glass is one of the most expensive glasses on the market. So the Zalto Universal glass in Singapore is $80 a glass, so that’s well over 40 pounds.

Susie: And is that because the Zalto Universal, they don’t make a machine version of it, do they? They just make the whole hand blown. Hand blown, yeah.

Jackie Ang: So my argument here is you don’t actually need a hand blown glass to enjoy wine. Machine made glasses with the same shape and the same size in theory would deliver the same sensory perception. In theory. So that’s why the Gabriel machine made glass excels because it’s less than half the price. So basically what I would do if I were a consumer today is to take the dimensions of the Zalto glass and then go out into the market and start measuring the dimensions of every glass out there and find something that’s pretty close.

Susie: And what about weight though, because the is, is the Gabriel glass, a heavy, slightly heavier glass, often machine made are a little bit heavier, aren’t they?

Jackie Ang: This one is about the sense of touch, so it’s about the feel of the glass, which is important of course, because there is a, conceive, there’s a notion that, you know, the lighter the glasses, the more elegant it feels, the more, glassy it feels. So that, that’s something. And also lighter glasses tend to be associated with hand blown glass. So the Gabriel Glass is 150 grammes, the Zalto Universal is 144. That’s not significant as a difference.

Susie: It’s tiny, isn’t it? Yeah.

Jackie Ang: But it does have a thicker stem.

Susie: Ah. okay. So slightly thicker feel to it. Yes. Yeah.

Jackie Ang: Yes.

Susie: Okay. So what do you hope your research paper will achieve? You know, will it lead to universal glasses ultimately replacing variety and style specific glasses in the future? Or will it just give greater credence to the belief that universal glasses can potentially offer just as good and sometimes better a drinking experience?

Jackie Ang: So what I hope my research does is that it will tell consumers that if we just look at sensory perception, if we don’t look at the visuals, if we don’t look at anything else, universal glasses actually do well with, with multiple styles of wine, at least the ones I’ve seen in the research, probably a lot of the other adjacent styles as well. So what I hope to achieve is that, you know, it’s totally fine to just have one set of glasses at home for table wines at the very least. Maybe for fortified might be a different thing, maybe for sparkling, it might be a different thing, but at least for table wines, you know, you can get away with just one set of glasses.

Susie: And why do some glass makers

00:30:00

Susie: who produce variety specific glasses also do universal glasses? Is that a business model that just works?

Jackie Ang: I think they’re just trying to appeal to both camps. I think that that’s what this is. You can be staunchly on the one side of the fence, you can be staunchly on the other side of the fence. And I think glass manufacturers, at the end of the day, they want to make profits. So what they want to do perhaps is to play to both sides. So if you trust my glass making skills, okay, if you believe that universal glasses are the way to go, great. I have a glass for you. If you believe that I need a bottle glass, I need a Burgundy glass, I need a Montrachet glass. You know what, I have the glasses for you as well. So I think there’s absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing. And I think it’s great that they are willing to do both sides, but it’s up to the consumer to decide what glasses they want to buy at the end of the day.

Susie: And what would your glassware advice be to wine drinkers, out there who want the best wine experience they can, but maybe don’t have the budget or the bandwidth to, go crazy in the glassware department?

Jackie Ang: Get yourself a measuring tape. It’s not expensive. Right. Measuring tape. Go to go shopping, get the dimensions of the glass. You know what the universal glass feels like and looks like based on my paper. What the height, what’s the volume, what’s the D ratio? All of these are scientific and you can measure every glass out there. So it doesn’t matter what the glass is labelled as. It can be labelled grape variety specific, but if it has the same D ratio, the same height, the same mouth, the same weight, roughly, it’s going to act the same way.

Susie: And what wine glasses, do you use at home?

Jackie Ang: Ah, so it depends on what I’m drinking. So Zalto universals, ah, are great and I use them a lot. Okay. but I also use the Zalto Champagne. So the Zalto Champagne is for sparkling wine because the universal glass is so broad that you need to pour a relatively large volume into them for sparkling wine and that’s obviously not good to retain the bubbles. For, fortified wines, I like to use smaller glasses, so sherry port, for example. So I usually go with something that’s about 400 mils closer to the Riedel Riesling glass. But other than that it’s mostly the universal.

Susie: And you’ve got quite a lot at, home, haven’t you now to play with?

Jackie Ang: Yes, yes, yes. So I’ve got plenty of every glass now that’s in the research paper and also quite a lot of glasses that people have sent me to review.

Susie: So I bet, a man in demand. Jackie Ang thank you so much.

Jackie Ang: Thank you.

Peter: Was Jackie actually sitting on a pile of wine boxes when you recorded this interview? Just out of interest? That’s how I’m seeing as I’m picturing glasses. Exactly. That’s how I picture picturing the scene, messing around. What incredible work. Fascinating findings. Everyone should check this paper out. We’ll put a link in our show notes. Essentially universal glasses work. And also, though we didn’t feature this so much in our interview edit Good wine glasses make a difference.

Susie: Yeah, it’s a great piece of work. Well worth reading. And essentially, yes, the wine glass does change how you perceive and enjoy a wine, particularly when it comes to white wine, which was in itself an interesting find. And then universal glasses can outperform variety specific glasses, even when the wine in question is made from the grape variety the glass is designed for.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. I did love Jackie’s tip to get your measuring tape out if you want to find a bargain. in other words, fine glasses of similar proportions to a Zalto Universal and they should work just as well. And. And, this is relevant when. When a Zalto Universal costs around, you know, what is it, £50 a pop now?

Susie: Yeah, yeah. That said, Jackie does use Zalto universals and we use Zalto universals too, because they’re so fine and delicate and elegant, and yet, despite being so seemingly fragile, they’re remarkably durable and they flex a bit. Scary, apparently. Apparently. That’s because they cool the glasses particularly slowly when they’re making them to give them extra durability. And they do deliver a consistently, I’d say, great drinking experience. You know, I’m not sure how easy that is to replicate.

Peter: Indeed, indeed. now, Jackie also mentioned touch and the feeling feel of a glass. You know, obviously in his research he was trying to minimise people’s visual sense of the glasses. But one thing we love about the Zalto is the feel of its super fine stem and super fine rim on your lips. You know, I know that some people find that fineness a little bit anxiety inducing. It’s a bit too much, but for me, it’s magical.

Susie: Yeah.

Peter: You know, and the whole feel of lightness and delicacy is just great.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. And Jackie also mentioned, Charles Spence, who we’ve of course had on the pod in the Magical Science of Taste episode back in 2022. And professor, Spence specialises in multisensory perception. So how touch and sight and taste and smell interact and other things,

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Susie: I guess, too. Yeah, yeah. And Jackie mentioned the whole thing about preconceptions coming into play too, which is important. Now, this is where I wanted to voice an opinion. And I do recognise the value of universal glasses. They are our default glass for tasting and drinking. but I no longer think you can live by one glass alone. And the reason for this is partly functional, but also what I term more aesthetic. M. You know, or certainly something that goes beyond just functional.

Peter: Susie flies in the face of science once again. Go on. I’m intrigued. Intrigued.

Susie: Come on. Nothing about science. Anyway, so my recommendation would be, you need three kinds of wine. Glass M. So one universal style glass, definitely. Then one. It’s not going to surprise you, Sparkling wine glass. And my current favourite is the Riedel English sparkling wine glass, which we’ve already mentioned and which is in their Veloce range. and I love it because it’s elegant and refined, but also spacious enough to properly swirl and smell your wine, despite still looking like a proper fizz glass.

Peter: Yeah.

Susie: You know. And then finally, one push the boat out glass for really special wine. Something big and decadent. we happen to love, or I happen to love, certainly the Zalto Burgundy glass. But it could be whatever you find most appealing and indulgent.

Peter: Interesting. There you go, the expert verdict. the sage has spoken. And Jackie did say, you know, he has different glasses for fizz and fortified too. So I think that’s allowed. It’s fair enough, officially sanctioned. And, you know, it’s interesting you touched on aesthetics and fun and indulgence, which do absolutely go beyond functionality, you know, because wine too, it’s not just about pure functionality, is it? How it tastes, whatever, you know, there’s stuff around the sides and there’s fun and value in that.

Susie: Yeah, yeah. Now, one universal we also use alongside Zalto is, is the Jancis Robinson glass. Jancis needs little introduction given she’s the world’s leading wine writer and communicator. In our view, her achievements are way too long to start listing. But in 2018, she added another string to her bow by teaming up with London based designer, Richard Brendon to launch the Jancis Robinson Collection. I will gloss over the fact that you managed to break one of these glasses while Jancis was making a speech at the exclusive launch event at her own flat…

Peter: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for that. I thought we’d agree that didn’t need to be said. Anyway. Anyway, once again, I find myself needing to move swiftly on. So I’m just going to say her glasses prove very popular.

Susie: They are popular.

Peter: They are.

Susie: They’re very beautiful.

Peter: in terms of the design, Jancis was keen to have a tapered top to keep the aromas in a, ah, decent bowl to maximise surface area and aromas and a rim as thin as possible because in her words, it’s a huge sensual pleasure to have as little as possible between you and the liquid.

Susie: Now, there were limitations on height because it needed to be dishwasher proof, as it were, but equally, she didn’t want it to be too big because she feels some glasses, and I quote, are just too much. She was looking for a happy medium and also a classical feel in terms of the curvature and the, the look of the glass.

Peter: Now, they started off with just handmade glasses, but in response to restaurant requests for durability have introduced a slight, a slightly heavier and thicker machine made option too. difference in prices, 26 pounds versus 48 pounds per glass, in case you were wondering.

Susie: But the key thing that Jancis was adamant about was that she only wanted one glass design. She said you should only need one wine glass for every wine. So I asked her why.

Jancis Robinson: I’ve never understood why white wine should be served in a smaller glass than red wine wine. It’s just as complex and communicative. There’s no, there’s absolutely no reason for it. you want to taste every nuance of every wine, or I do anyway, whatever the colour, whether it’s sparkling or still, however strong it is. I, I was encouraged in this by seeing that top sherry and port producers really want their wines to be served in a proper wine glass, not in a tiny little thimble. And also in Champagne, there’s a great movement away from the flute where you can’t really get your nose in properly and see what the champagne’s got to say to you. So most of the champagne producers that I really admired were moving towards wine glasses too. Then also there’s the whole practical thing. Who’s got the space? I mean, we’re all short of space. also there was the sort of Marie Kondo

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Jancis Robinson: thing, you know, lets declutter and everything. There is another practical point which is that there are a lot of variety specific or region specific wine glasses around that are very, very similar. And it’s not, and they’re not engraved with the name of the wine that’s meant to be served in them or anything. Not to my knowledge, anyway. So it’s really difficult to tell the difference between them. So I’m just all for. I’ve always, throughout my, my life, communicating about wine. I go for simplification, practicality and welcoming people in making it less snooty and complicated.

Susie: Now, there’s been a very recent, Master of Wine research paper that compared universal glasses to grape variety specific glasses. And the universal glasses in that study came out on top. What’s your reaction to that?

Jancis Robinson: That I was delighted, of course, But I think it’s not surprising because there’s no such thing as a one and only typical Pinot Noir or Sauvignon Blanc, you know, that there is, there are huge variations in styles between different wines. And so I think coming up with one glass to suit individual grape varieties is a bit of a. You’re on a bit of a hiding to nothing. I mean, one glass to suit every single wine in the world might work in theory, but not in practise.

Susie: Now, you’re gonna have to forgive me for putting this to you, but, I asked Max Riedel for his opinion on the concept of a universal glass. And he said, and I quote, I know that there are some famous people in the wine who just look for the easy way out and the perfect glass does not exist. What’s your response to that?

Jancis Robinson: Well, what does Riedel sell if not perfect glasses? He means the perfect universal glass. I did probably, like many, many wine professionals, way back, way back, probably in the 80s sometime, I went through the, the whole Georg Riedel experiment, you know, of tasting different sorts of glasses with the same wines and coming up with a matrix. Ah, you know, which one scored the best and guess what? The real one did. but the differences were like points, you know, like decimal points in terms of overall scores between various glasses and, you know, good on them. I have nothing against Riedel. Great. They’ve made a fantastic business and they make scores, if not hundreds of different glasses. go ahead, carry on. But, but just leave those of us who are of a slightly more practical bent, to pursue our thing.

Susie: So these days, Jancis, Do you have a range of different glasses at home or.

Jancis Robinson: No, I’m afraid once I’d come up with, with my glass, I’m afraid I threw all the rest of. Well, I gave the rest of them to our children.

Susie: And do you. You never want to drink from a different glass? Because I know I’m going to speak just from our point of view. You know, we have, we have some universal glasses, but we’ve also got some Zalto, beautiful Burgundy glasses that I just love to get out. And then we’ve also actually got a Riedel and the English sparkling wine glasses. I just like occasionally to have something different. Do you not. Do you never feel that?

Jancis Robinson: I’m afraid not, no. no, I can see your point. And especially when if you’re entertaining and you want a sort of lovely table setting where it all looks different, I absolutely understand that. and indeed, when I think of, say, a three star Michelin place, part of the theatre is to give people lots of different glasses, isn’t it? And part of the job of a top somm is to, you know, present on the immaculately ironized linen tablecloth, you know, a series of different shapes that’s fine. I mean, I’m not. I absolutely understand that impetus. It’s just that I don’t think it’s born out of, really serious scientific need for different glasses. I think it’s born out of a. An aesthetic. People wanting to put on a performance or a. Or a different look. Look. But. But I just firmly believe that my glass really flatters wine. It, emphasises faults as well. It just makes the wine express itself to the max. And that’s. That’s enough for me. And I must say, every night when I go to the glass clubboard cupboard and bring out my glasses, whatever I’m tasting, I think, oh, great. You know, I’ve got the key here. Ah.

Susie: And how do you see the future for wine glasses? You know, are we gonna. Are we talking lots of universal style glasses? Is the writing on the wall for specific glasses? For specific styles of wine?

Jancis Robinson: I don’t know. I mean, it would be very, presumptuous of me to say, really. I mean, I don’t want to criticise anybody else’s business. I mean, everyone can do what they like, really. But I do think that over. And I’ve noticed, that overall the quality of glassware has been getting better and better for wine drinkers, which is great. And, you know, we all love wine and let’s make the most of it with a beautiful glass.

Susie: Jancis, Thank you so much.

Jancis Robinson: Thank you.

Peter: Let’s make the most of our wine with a beautiful glass. I think that’s wonderful. One thing we can all agree on.

Susie: We can. Although, as Jancis and I just did, we can all agree to differ in our individual approaches. Janice just has her glasses, but as much as I love her glasses, I think I prefer to be able to ring the changes on certain occasions.

Peter: What we can probably all agree on is we don’t need 50 different kinds of white glasses like we have in this house. So, you know, maybe we need to get a bit. Marie Kondo.

Susie: Oh, did you say that officially on. Yeah, in every sense, Marie Kondo.

Peter: I may have said yes. Unofficially.

Susie: We heard it. We all heard it.

Peter: I’ll be getting rid of stuff, you’re good at that aren’t you?

Susie: I am.

Peter: I struggle anyway, you know, while we’re on the subject of Jancis’ glasses, she also has a stemless option, which is the same as her normal wine glass, just without the stem. What do we think of stemless glasses?

Susie: Yeah, I mean, I think if that’s what you like, then, then go for it. And some people I know love that. And I do sometimes inform that informal feel of a stem stemless glass. And plus they’re much easier to pop in the dishwasher. we’ve got some very fine Riedel stemless O range wine tumblers, haven’t we? But we tend to use them as water glasses. And Jancis stemless glass is sold as a wine and water glass too. You know, drinking water out of glasses like this is a real treat.

Peter: True, it makes it feel.

Susie: Drinking water can never be a treat. It really is. but, you know, yeah, going back to the, the wine, I think we do tend to use glasses with stems for wine because when you hold them by the stem rather than the bowl, they just, they just feel sort of more special, more elegant. You don’t warm up the wine, of course, or get smudges on the bowl from a practical point of view, but, you know, that is just my take.

Peter: Okay, so I think we’ve covered a lot of ground there, and it’s time now to wrap up. by way of closing summary, wine glasses can prove just as much of a headache as the morning after too much fine wine wine. but new research has shown that not only does choosing the right wine glass make a difference, but also there is such a thing as a one size fits all wine glass. For still table wines. At least with today’s profusion of options, there’s no shortage of glasses to choose from. We’d advise having a couple of staples and then maybe the odd indulgence. Go with what makes you happy and go easy on the washing up.

Susie: I think you always go easy on the washing up, don’t you? Thank you to Jancis Robinson, Maximilian Riedel and Jackie Ang. And of course, thanks to you for listening. Until next time, cheers.

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