Susie & Peter / Podcast Episodes  / Season Six / Fake Wine: A Laughing Matter?

Summary

Brilliant rogues counterfeit unicorn wine, fool the establishment and laugh their way to the bank.

It’s good story – so good that even The Simpsons have released an episode dedicated to wine fraud.

But is this just a laughing matter?

This is without doubt one of our FAVOURITE EVER Wine Blast episodes.

It stars no less than Homer and Marge Simpson, Mr Burns, Waylon Smithers and Professor Frink. Together with The Simpsons co-writer Johnny LaZebnik and wine fraud expert Maureen Downey.

Fraud is an ever-bigger issue for the wine world.

It’s nothing new (Pliny the Elder grumbled about it in Roman times). But in the wake of notorious fraudsters like Hardy Rodenstock and Rudy Kurniawan, it has become more professional and widespread, with organised crime moving into a profitable and low-risk venture.

The implications are profound, as Maureen Downey explains.

But that doesn’t mean we can’t have a laugh about it.

So we get exclusive access to the hilarious animated world of The Simpsons to experience how they explore the theme of fake wine.

Along the way we talk Robin Hood, queue-jumping, Jesus,  ‘cover-up’ sex, how radioactivity helps detect fakes, and Peter’s pants.

Starring

Johnny LaZebnik
Maureen Downey

Clip

Here’s a brief clip from the show (thanks Disney+) to whet your appetite.

Marge, Homer and Waylon Smithers have teamed up to fake the $1m unicorn bottle of ‘Napoleon’ wine that Mr Burns and his cronies are gathering to share. This is the moment of truth as the bottle is put to the test:

Links

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Wine

We only feature one wine on this show – a Gevrey-Chambertin (just like the Napoleon bottle that Marge and Mr Smithers counterfeit).

For reference it is: Domaine Tortochot Gevrey-Chambertin Les Corvées 2015, 13%

Thanks & credit

We’d like to sincerely thank the wonderful team at Disney and behind the scenes at The Simpsons, who have, without exception, been an absolute delight to work with on this episode.

We’d also like to thank Disney+ for the kind permission to use images, audio, music and video content from the show.

You can find the show on Disney+ (though access depends on your location, and generally speaking you’ll need a subscription to watch). The full details are:

The Simpsons Season 36 Episode 11: Bottle Episode

Teaser video

Press

Since we broadcast the episode, it’s been picked up fairly widely in the national (and even international) press – including The Daily Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The Express, Drinks Business, MSN and The Grocer.

Here are a few of the headlines…

Get in Touch!

We love to hear from you. 

You can send us an email. Or find us on social media (links below).

Or, better still, leave us a voice message via the magic of SpeakPipe:


Transcript

This transcript is AI-generated – it’s not perfect.

Homer Simpson: Okay, Homer, you got a million dollar bottle of wine. For once in your life, don’t be stupid.

Susie: Hello! And yes, you’re right, that’s not our usual intro!! But don’t worry, you haven’t hit the wrong link and strayed into a cartoon parallel universe. This is a very special episode of Wine Blast in which we’re tackling the thorny but enthralling issue of wine fraud –  in a unique way.

Peter: Yes, hello and welcome to the wine pod with a difference. We always love to over deliver for you – and boy, are we doing that with this show! We’re getting an exclusive glimpse into the legendary animated world of The Simpsons. And we’re also getting down and dirty on the topic of wine fraud. Here’s a taster of of what’s coming up:

Waylon Smithers: You’re getting notes of cigar smoke, saffron. Oh, sandalwood! And cupcake frosting from a child’s birthday party. With notes of petting zoo on the finish…

Maureen Downey: According to the WHO and Euromonitor, over 25% of all alcohol consumed globally is illicit. There is a tonne of revenue that is supposed to be going for things like schools and streets and safety that is not getting collected. And I think that’s a big deal. So it hurts everyone. The average consumer is pretty screwed. I am loathed by vendors the globe over. And yes, I’ve had to take bodyguards to large tastings. I’ve been assaulted both physically and verbally. But you know, I sleep well at night, so that’s okay.

Susie: There may indeed be a whiff of petting zoo come the end of this episode! In the best possible way, of course, In reverse order, that was wine fraud expert Maureen Downey, and before her, Waylon Smithers, a character from The Simpsons who was describing, in inimitable fashion, a pretty intriguing bottle of 1945 Bordeaux.

Peter: yeah, we’ll be hearing more from both of them in this episode. but before we explain why on earth, we have characters from The Simpsons popping up on Wine Blast, we should probably give a bit of a preface. Wine fraud is a subject we’ve touched on before on the pod. The, Billionaire’s Vinegar, a title we’ll come back to, is one of the six best wine books we featured in our episode of that name back in. I think it was September 2023, wasn’t it? that’s all about the famous Jefferson Lafite scandal involving the most expensive bottle of wine ever sold at that time, but whose authenticity and the reputation of its seller Hardy Rodenstock came, under scrutiny for many reasons, including the fact that the engraving on the bottle, supposedly from 1787, appeared to have been made with a modern dentist drill…

Susie: Yeah, but what we, what we haven’t done is dedicate an entire episode to wine fraud. something we’re putting to rights now. I guess we sort of felt like we’d done it because I hosted a BBC Radio 4 programme back in 2017 called the Wine Detectives, where I interviewed a, well, a fabulous lineup of people, including Olivier Berrouet at Chateau Petrus, Wine Detective Michael Egan, and perhaps my favourite, Dr. Philippe Hubert, a physicist at Bordeaux’s Centre for Nuclear Research. I also interviewed Maureen Downey then. We’ll put a link in our show notes.

Peter: Yeah, but 2017, it seems like an age ago now, particularly in the world of wine fraud.

Susie: Indeed.

Peter: Because, my word, have things moved on! So we wanted to look at this with fresh eyes, importantly, we don’t just want to do a recap. Lots, of takes on this topic breathlessly race their way through all the many fraud headlines or wallow in the gory details of just one or two of the more egregious cases. What we want to do is not just describe, but analyse, ask the difficult questions. How does this happen? What are the real implications? And what should we be doing about it?

Susie: That all sounds very serious. So we should probably say that we’re also going to be having a bit of a laugh. And that’s where we’re going to start and where The Simpsons comes in.

Peter: Yes, indeed it is. Now, loyal listeners of this show, after repeated Simpsons references on Wine Blast, will be aware that I am something of a fan…

Susie: Fan. Yeah, fan. I think even super fan doesn’t come close. And just to illustrate my point, what pants are you wearing right now?

Peter: Gosh. Gosh….. I am, I am, On the one hand, I am glad we are keeping our, line of questioning fresh on Wine Blast. We haven’t done that question on the show before…

Susie: but, yeah, fresh pants.

Peter: Fair enough. I. I can confirm I am indeed wearing Simpsons pants, but this is way more detail than anyone signed up to hear on the show.

Susie: Yeah, I mean, apologies all round. That was probably a bit of a cheap shot. I just couldn’t resist. I’m sorry. And actually, in defence, they were a comedy Christmas present from our daughter and you hate letting anything go to waste. Plus, I’m happy to say they do only

00:05:00

Susie: make a very occasional outing.

Peter: Let’s not. Let’s not get into the frequency of pants! I think that really would be too much detail… Let’s move m on. I got into The Simpsons when I lived in Chile. the combination of kind of searing satire and slapstick gold was just too good. I, fell in love immediately. And I guess a fair few people agree with me, given the Simpsons has been going for over 30 years now. It’s, the longest running American scripted primetime TV series. It’s winner of countless awards, Time magazine’s best TV series of the 20th century. It, predicted the Trump presidency and the smartwatch, among many other things. Anyway, enough, when I got wind they were doing a whole Simpsons episode on wine fraud, I nearly fainted with excitement.

Susie: And we thought, of course we did. What a great excuse to do a proper wine blast episode episode on wine fraud. And so here we are in what is probably going to be your favourite wine blast episode ever, isn’t it?

Peter: Already is. Already is.

Susie: Yeah. Now, we of course wanted to get an insight into why the Simpsons would do a whole episode on wine fraud and how they made it happen. So we got in touch with show co writer Johnny Lazebnik, and that interview is coming up. But before we get into that, we should set the scene.

Peter: Yeah. So wine has featured fairly regularly on The Simpsons over the years. I should know. I, I, the very first series back in 1989, 1990, featured wine fraud, in fact, with antifreeze being added to beef up thin wine, a sort of reference to the Austrian wine scandal of the 1980s. but the setup for this episode we’re talking about here is that Mr. Burns, the fundamentally evil, but also somehow lovable billionaire, buys a million dollar bottle of Gevrey chambertin once owned by Napoleon. needless to say, Homer Simpson fail his one job to keep the bottle safe. and his wife Marge and Waylon Smithers, who’s Mr. Burns assistant, decide to create a fake to substitute for the original.

Susie: Here’s the moment when Mr. Burns is sharing this fake unicorn bottle with his obscenely wealthy friends, a, club they call the one percenters with the one deliberately misspelt oen, which is an in joke for the true cork dorks out there. Anyway, Homer and Marge have snuck in to witness the moment of truth. As Mr Burns opens proceedings,

Mr Burns: I call to order this meeting with our credo, never drink something younger or date something older than you!

General cheers: To pointless excess!

Mr Burns: And now, the main event. A bottle of wine once held by Napoleon himself. Smithers, release the cork.

Homer Simpson: Moment of truth.

Marge Simpson: You Know, our marriage really could use fewer moments of truth.

Cowboy Guy: Now that’s million buck Chuck!!

Krusty the clown: Complex, with  with a hint of ya ya yai yai yai yoing!!

Marge Simpson: The cover-up worked!

Homer Simpson: And tonight we’ll have cover up sex.

Marge Simpson: Oooooh, it’ll be my first!

Homer Simpson: No, it won’t!

Peter: Now the. The plot unravels from there with a musical number, a homage to the classic 1970s Disney Robin Hood animation, and a swingers party all featured. but we don’t want to give out all the spoilers. You, really do have to watch the episode for yourself. It’s on Disney Plus. Tune in, people. What are you doing if you’re not tuning into this sort of stuff? Suffice it to say, the episode delivers weighty moral quandaries and lots of gags.

Susie: So, as I said, we spoke with Johnny LaZebnik, who was one of the writing team for this episode, along with his dad, wine lover and longtime writer Rob LaZebnik. Now, Rob, who has dabbled in a spot of home winemaking in his time, has called this episode a love letter to wine. Johnny is more of a newcomer to wine, which makes his perspective on writing this episode all the more intriguing.

Peter: So here’s my interview with Johnny, which we’ve interspersed with clips from Bottle Episode, as it’s called, to bring the show to life for you. and just one detail before we start. Manischewitz here is a traditional kosher red wine famous for being cheap, sweet, and tasting a bit like cough syrup.

Johnny LaZebnik: The episode is effectively a sort of Robin Hood style show in which Marge and Mr. Smithers, Mr. Burns lackey, Team up, in order to forge and then sell a fake very old gevrey Chambertin in the hopes of using the proceeds to, sort of reverse some of Mr. Burns particularly bad recent ventures.

Marge Simpson: What if we sell fake wine to the rich to give to the poor? Like Robin Hood?

Waylon Smithers: We’re doing this. We’re actually going to Robin Hood a bottle of fake wine.

Marge Simpson: Look at all these mega rich wine

00:10:00

Marge Simpson: connoisseurs. I’ve never seen so many people not wearing baseball caps.

Johnny LaZebnik: it, is like very much inspired by the book The Billionaire’s Vinegar. And I believe, yeah, the origins of the episode were, my dad reading that book, thinking that, there could be something funny within it to mine and, expanding outward into the world of the Simpsons from there. But it’s funny because I’m not especially a wine guy. And so it was definitely, also a journey for me of learning more about wine and the world of It. And making sure that we were being respectful toward it as opposed to sort of laughing at it.

Peter: So tell me a bit more about that, because, you know, how did you find that process and the wine element within that?

Johnny LaZebnik: Yeah, there’s like a kind of big, dramatic court scene in which the prosecutor gives a speech about wine. And we had a lot of conversations about how to execute the episode such that the forgery is basically found out. But we don’t imply that unophiles can’t tell the difference between a forged wine and a real wine. That there is a true art and a science to wine tasting and studying, and that it’s not just, you know, people sitting around a table being like, well, this tastes old and therefore it’s good.

Wine Prosecutor: Wine is much more than a beverage. For centuries, it has told the story of civilization. Whenever something is that rare, unique and beautiful, it is attacked by greed and fraud at every turn. Thus, it is our responsibility to ensure. That this jewel of our society keeps its integrity intact.

Peter: You mentioned, you know, you wanted to be respectful to wine. You didn’t want to undermine it. Can you just talk to me a bit more about that, how you maybe developed those ideas when it came to the scripting and the plot?

Johnny LaZebnik: Yes. So, it felt like when you’re talking about a wine forgery, we debated having a scene in which someone makes a big speech along the lines of, what does it matter if the forged wine fooled everyone in the room and they all thought that it was real, expensive wine? Who cares? What’s the crime? What crime has been committed here? And that was, for a long time, sort of the crux of that scene. And we ended up just feeling like in doing so, we discounted an entire, art form and profession and knowledge base, and it felt wrong. so we had a lot of discussions about it and ended up settling on sort of a slightly different path. Yeah. But that balancing act of them being able to initially fool people into buying it, which was important for the plot of the episode, versus paying for it later on, was, tricky. And I think. I think we managed to execute it. But, it was definitely. It required a lot of discussions in the writers room.

Peter: That’s really interesting. At one point, Monty Burns does have a line, I think, where he says that, you know, he’s protecting the myth that the possessions of the obscenely wealthy are remotely worth it. Is the implication there that fine and rare wine, you know, maybe isn’t worth it?

Johnny LaZebnik: I think it’s less about wine specifically there, and more just about. Yeah. Like, is anything worth A million dollars worth it? Especially something that can go away. I think it’s a little easier to argue for fine art and stuff like that, but a bottle of wine that can be drunk, is that worth a million dollars? Is a. Is a sip of something worth a million dollars? And I think, you know, especially in Mr. Burns case where it’s obscene wealth and you’re thinking about like, just the current humanitarian struggles and stuff like that, and you’re asking, are these people who are spending $2 million on a bottle of what is probably vinegar, is that just in a world where they could be using that money to like, feed children or whatever? And we have a very funny sequence about Mr. Burns obscene wealth and the other dubious things that he’s bought as a result.

Mr Burns: I was protecting the myth that the possessions of the obscenely wealthy are remotely worth it. If that bottle was exposed as fake, sceptical eyes might look to fine art, such as my Vermeer Girl with the Pearl Nose ring. Or my Bible signed by Jesus.

Johnny LaZebnik: I think it is an interesting question, and I think, it’s definitely not a question specific to wine, of how should people be spending their money and what is sort of just. And, when is it good to splurge and when is it wrong to splurge and when is it wrong to have that much money to begin with? So, yeah, I think that’s sort of what we’re playing with there.

Peter: I understand there is a bit of a wine cameo. Is that right from a wine figure?

Johnny LaZebnik: Robert Parker?

Peter: Robert Parker, yeah.

Johnny LaZebnik: he does a voice, he has a few lines. He’s fantastic. he nails it. And I, hope we did him justice because definitely we were able to mine a lot of comedy out of just, his ranking system.

Waylon Smithers: There’s Francis Ford Coppola and Andrew Lloyd Webber, the most surprisingly straight wine collector in the world. And he’s next to Robert Parker, who invented the 100 point wine ranking scale.

Andrew Lloyd Webber: I will buy this Napoleon wine with the money from the music that I write, the money from the music of the night.

Robert Parker: I rate this conversation a 36.

Peter: Now, without giving too many spoilers, you know, at one point, the protagonists do attempt to recreate or fake a very fine old,

00:15:00

Peter: rare wine. How did you decide what ingredients to use in that fraudulent concoction?

Johnny LaZebnik: I would say 10% research to 90% what sounded funny! It’s Professor Frink saying it. And a lot of when you’re writing for Professor Frink is just saying words in a pathetic attempt to do, his voice and Figuring out what sounds funny. And so it’s. He lists a few actual chemical ingredients and ends with Manischewitz. Just because we were like, we want to hear Professor Frink say Manischewitz.

Professor Frink: well, based on my analysis of the last drops of the stewified Napoleon wine, I’ve created a replica out of diamonium phosphate, calcium carbonate and 14 cc’s of Manischewitz.

Waylon Smithers: That’s amazing.

Johnny LaZebnik: So, yeah, it was, like, I mean, mildly. We did some, research about, like, even just what’s in wine in general. And I thought, this is directly from the billionaires vinegar. But there’s a. There’s a chunk and a joke about, radioactivity and, making sure that the radioactivity is duplicated, which, I was fascinated by. And there ends up being a joke about Homer’s groin, naturally, because that’s where we always go.

Peter: and what are you hoping viewers take away from this episode?

Johnny LaZebnik: The episode is sort of a moral quandary about whether it is ethical to steal from the rich in order to give to the poor. And I think that that question, that Robin Hoody question, I think is like, sort of the ethical heart of the show. But I do think it did teach me a lot about the art of. Of wine tasting and collecting. And I do want people to, respect the art after watching the show more than they possibly went into it doing.

Peter: As a relative wine newbie, when you’re researching. When you’re reading the billionaires Vinegar, when you’re researching this wine collecting fraud, does it all seem a bit bonkers? Is it all a bit mad, or do you find it’s actually intriguing?

Johnny LaZebnik: I think somewhere in the middle. I think in the show, we also make an effort to make it as bonkers as possible. We have a, wine court, which is, based loosely on French Court from Anatomy of a Fall. And I think we really double down into, like, the ridiculousness of the world.

Wine Prosecutor: You will be housed here in wine jail while you await your trial in Springfield Wine court.

Marge Simpson: Wine court?!

Wine Prosecutor: Yes, wine crimes are too sophisticated for the undeveloped legal palate of the American system. She sold a champagne that was actually a Prosecco. He called his wine a, Beaujolais Nouveau, but there was nothing nouveau about it. And he’s in solitary for his own protection.

Random prisoner: We don’t take kindly to oenophiles here.

Johnny LaZebnik: I don’t know. I mean, yeah, it’s a little bonkers, but I also think I understand the appeal more and more, especially as someone who does have niche interests and will Spend money on things that I love, so.

Peter: Because obviously, there’s a more sinister side to the whole wine fraud thing, isn’t there? And is there a risk that we sort of make light of wine fraud and say the people who make these wines are genius sort of blenders and whatnot? And actually, that sort of slightly is a dangerous perspective to have.

Johnny LaZebnik: I think that’s totally right. I think, in the real world, it is just fully a crime. And, you know, it’s not very noble when you’re forging wine for personal gain. Then it is really just a crime.

Peter: I would say so, yeah. So you know the Simpsons, as far as I can see, it’s been going for over 30 years. What do you think the future holds for the Simpsons?

Johnny LaZebnik: I just think it’s so impressive how they’ve managed to stay funny and current and to keep it going that they find new things to mine even now. and I hope that they can just keep doing that. It’s impossible to know what the future holds, especially just because TV is in such a weird place right now. But, it’s hard to imagine a world without The Simpsons, and I hope we never have to.

Peter: Do you think wine could feature again?

Johnny LaZebnik: I think it almost certainly will. Just based on chance. I love Marge as a wine mom. I think she really is like that quintessential American mom who’s like a glass of chardonnay at lunch sometimes with ice cubes in it. You know, there’s a great line in the episode where as proof that she doesn’t know anything about wine, they ask her what her recipe for sangria is, and she says, like, two parts Duff wine cooler to one part grape popsicle. And I think it really just, like, encompasses who that character is. so I always like seeing Marge with a glass of wine because I know she’s having a good time. So in that way, if nothing else, for sure.

Peter: So we have hope. Johnny, thank you very much indeed.

Johnny LaZebnik: You’re so welcome. This has been a true pleasure.

Susie: Not sure I’ve ever had or needed a recipe for sangria. But then I think I’m probably quite different from Marge all round.

Peter: You are. I think you are.

Susie: I think I am. Yes, Definitely there. But I do love the notion of wine court, and the bible signed by Jesus. I mean, that is just brilliant. But did I hear something about radioactivity? That takes me back to meeting nuclear physicist Dr. Philippe Hubert in Bordeaux.

Peter: Your favourite man from the Wine Detectives show.

00:20:00

Susie: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, now. It’s a small detail. But it’s to do with how you can prove certain wines are fakes. Because hydrogen and nuclear bomb testing began in 1952, and since then, radioactive cesium 137 isotopes have been detectable in the atmosphere and wine, but not so much in wines before that year. So if someone sells you a wine from a vintage before 1952 and it has high concentrations of cesium 137, it’s fake.

Peter: Ah, good facts, good facts. and, my mind was wandering slightly when you were saying that, and I just. I particularly love the fact you’re talking about nuclear physics because know all about it. That’s another. That’s another Simpsons reference, as you would know as well.

Susie: Of course, I know that you know.

Peter: Of course, Homer works at the nuclear power plant, in springfield, and the local baseball team are called. Any ideas? The isotopes. Anyway, just a little bit of fun facts there. Johnny did mention, they’d originally had a longer sequence in the show about getting the right cork, bottle and all the little details to make Marge and Waylon’s fake wine seem legitimate. But it was cut. Ah. what a shame.

Susie: You did love your chat with him, m. Didn’t you?

Peter: I did.

Susie: I mean, that’s a dream come true for you, isn’t it? To interview a Simpsons writer.

Peter: Yeah. and Johnny was so lovely.

Susie: And as for Robert Parker actually having a cameo on the show, that’s surely another one of your dreams, isn’t it?

Peter: Oh, my God. Life. Life goals. Life goals. I mean, some people want to walk on the moon, you know, I want to be on the Simpsons. You want a husband who doesn’t wear cartoon themed pants.

Susie: Anyway, I’ve got no chance.

Peter: Anyway, we need to move on because coming up, we are hearing fascinating testimony from probably the leading expert on global wine fraud, Maureen Downey. Before that. Let’s take a breath. To recap so far, wine fraud has been the subject of a recent hilarious episode of The Simpsons But is wine fraud a Robin Hood esque caper? Essentially a victimless crime whereby the ultra rich are hoodwinked and the rest of us can laugh knowingly along? Is wine fraud, in short, a laughing matter?

Susie: So this is where we bring in Maureen Downey. Maureen is well known in wine circles. She’s probably well known in fraud circles, too, because she’s been hot on the trail of wine counterfeiters and fraudsters for more than two decades. Early on in her career, she joined the nascent wine auction scene in New York, which began in the mid-1990s. With an eye for detail and a hunger for knowledge, she soon began to notice anomalies. Bottles being touted for high prices which didn’t seem quite right because they were fakes. And soon she began to put names to those behind these dodgy bottles.

Peter: And one of those names was Rudy Kurniawan, a, one time friend of hers, incidentally. Initially a young ‘geeky’ guy, apparently of Indonesian extraction, who progressed rapidly from buying mid priced Merlot to selling ultra rare old vintages of Burgundy and Bordeaux for thousands of dollars, he cultivated a reputation for tasting prowess, generosity in sharing his expensive wines, and an uncanny ability to source fine and rare wines to sell at auction.

Susie: Now, this was all happening in the late 1990s and early 2000s in New York. Maureen started calling Rudy out on his frauds in 2002 after he tried to consign rare wines with no receipts or paper trail to the auction house where she was working. In 2008, Ultra Rare wines from Burgundy estate Domaine Ponsot were withdrawn from sale at Acker, Merrill and Condit auction house. But only when winemaker Laurent Ponsot showed up to say these wines had never been made by his domain. The consigner? Rudy Kurniawan.

Peter: It wasn’t until 2012 that Kurniawan was arrested at his LA home. The FBI found what amounted almost to a cartoon wine fraudster’s lair. corks, capsules, wax, stamps, glue, and fine wine labels aplenty. Bottles awaiting filling or labelling and to do lists that read like a wine collector’ greatest hits. He was sentenced to 10 years in jail and ordered to forfeit $20 million and repay $28 million to his victims.

Susie: Now Maureen, who helped the FBI with the investigation into Rudy and has published all the lurid details on her website, wine fraud.com says Rudy was essentially the fall guy. That he was working with others who have benefited from his crime and who were not caught or convicted. Kurniawan was extradited in 2021 to Indonesia. But the restitution and Maureen reckons he actually made more like 500 million worth of fake wine. And really importantly that thousands of his counterfeit bottles are still in circulation.

Peter: It’s also since emerged that Kurniawan whose real name is Jin Wang Wang, actually a Chinese national by birth, has family form. his uncle, hendra Rahaja, skimmed $200 million in bank fraud in Indonesia before fleeing the country. And another uncle, Eddie Tansil, embezzled $420 million from an Indonesian bank before bribing his way out of prison.

Susie: And there’s more, you know. According to Maureen, following his release, Rudy has again been up to his old tricks, but with a twist. She’s seen evidence that he’s been paid by wealthy wine collectors and reputable organisations in Singapore to supply fake versions of Ultra Fine wines as a kind of party trick. The idea being guests taste the real wines against the fake wines and see which ones they prefer. After one such event, Kurniawan was hailed as a vinous genius. Maureen says it’s really brazen. It pisses me off.

Peter: Now, Maureen told us she’s trying to secure a meeting with Rudy when she’s next out in Singapore, so we’ll report back on that one. in the meantime, it’s clear that Rudy’s headlining crimes have changed the world of wine. On the one hand, other criminal gangs have spotted an opportunity for easy money at relatively low risk. We’ll come on to Alexander Lugov and his Burgundy ring in due course. on the other hand, wine prices have gone up and wine producers have introduced anti fraud measures like embossing or etching glass, invisible writing, holograms.

Susie: But the problem is, according to Downey, most of these measures and others like them are, in her words, little better than cosmetic. You know, with big money to be made, fraudsters can and do invest in the latest digital printing and anti fraud tech, just like the producers. Plus, many of these techniques need to have the bottle in close proximity to work, by which time, Downey points out, you’ve probably already bought the wine and it’s too late.

Peter: Now, Downey advocates for greater transparency in the fine wine supply chain, describing the current setup as opaque. through her company, Shayvault, C H A I, she operates a Web3 system of authenticity, a blockchain secured ledger with full transparency of ownership, purchase history and provenance. When I spoke to Maureen, she told me about how she started down the path to becoming a wine fraud expert. and just to clarify, DRC is Domaine de la Romanee Conti, one of Burgundy’s most expensive brands.

Maureen Downey: When we would see certain bottles come up, sometimes you’d have, you’d put 12 bottles up and two of them would look wrong or something. And it was just, it was a very natural progression whereby I learned how to spot the differences. And then I started asking questions and then it became really fascinating to me and honestly, I was very annoyed that more people weren’t really upset by this. So I started digging in and learning more and following it. And then it was kind of a Combination of, it was really interesting and it was also really frustrating that nobody else in the industry cared. It was an open secret. So I just continued to pursue it and learn about it and learn about it. And in 2012, this guy, Rudy Kurniawan, whom I had been publicly calling out as a counterfeiter, was finally arrested. And so at that point everybody was like, okay, she was right. I was vindicated. And then everything took off.

Peter: As far as I understand this, this hasn’t been an easy path for you. You know, you talk about raising uncomfortable questions, asking those questions, pushing for answers. Does it take a certain sort of character type to do that?

Maureen Downey: Yeah. So I grew up with two older brothers, so I was used to being one of the boys. Right. So I was kind of used to the rough and tumble aspects of the world. But it was really frustrating when my friends, when my friends started really turning on me because I was calling them out. and I get it. I was the only woman and I was kind of the girl pissing on the boys campfire. And so that it was hard. And it was really hard because it was such a long time where I felt like I was one of the only voices, like, screaming into the wild. but, you know, I guess I’m stubborn and I, I had a little Sister Catherine, my third grade nun, on my shoulder telling me, no, do what’s right. And, and I, I, it was very frustrating and it was very lonely at times. And being outspoken has caused me to lose opportunities, you know, and, and yes, I’ve had to take bodyguards to large tastings. I’ve been assaulted at la, both physically and verbally. But, you know, I sleep well at night, so that’s okay.

Peter: Good for you.

Maureen Downey: I’m on the right side of this issue, so that’s okay.

Peter: The right side of history is always the right place to be.

Maureen Downey: Yeah.

Peter: so let’s zoom forward a little bit more. Can you give us an update on the latest in the world of wine fraud?

Maureen Downey: Absolutely.

00:30:00

Maureen Downey: So it’s, you know, a lot of people were happy to think that the, that wine fraud started and ended with Rudy Cunia one. It did not. Pliny, the Elder actually wrote about counterfeit Falernia back in 40, A.D. and unfortunately what we’ve actually seen is that organised crime, other fraudsters as well as organised crime, really looked at the Kurniawan fraud and the amount of money that was made and the fact that Rudy is the only guy that went down for it. The people that made the money aren’t the people that went down for it. So organised crime kind of looked at that and said, well, if they can make that kind of money and there are so few prosecutions and so few repercussions. If we get caught trafficking arms, we’re going to jail. If we get caught trafficking humans, we’re going to jail. If we get caught trafficking wine, nobody really cares. So, that is one thing that has happened. I think the second repercussion is that the prices of wine skyrocketed as the result of this Kurniawan fraud. So what we’re seeing now is that major organised crime rings are spending the half a million dollars that it costs to get the same digital printer that the professional printers are using. And they are completely replicating these bottles to a professional degree that is heretofore unseen. It’s next level. And they’re no longer making old and rare bottles because that’s hard. You have to get period glass. You have to age the labels, you have to make sure the cork is Now they just have it all made, they have it all made to the same specs that the producers use. So it’s getting, it’s getting really, it’s a different game, it’s much more money and we have seen some big arrests.

Peter: So I mean would you say it’s getting worse?

Maureen Downey: I would say that really good high end counterfeits are far more pervasive today than they used to be because it’s easier to replicate them at scale, including all this anti fraud. And so many producers are so secretive about what the anti fraud is that even their, sometimes even their distributors don’t know exactly what to look for. So you know, the average consumer is pretty screwed.

Peter: So again, just zooming out to see the bigger picture. You know, how big a problem is wine fraud right now, in your view, how much fake wine is there out there? Can you put numbers on this?

Maureen Downey: I think that’s really hard, but we try to track that in terms of what we’re seeing globally. and we’re finding that on the secondary market we’re hitting about 12 to 15% and that’s from reputable sources.

Peter: And by secondary market. Could you just explain very briefly what you mean?

Maureen Downey: Yeah, sorry. So my definition of fine and rare wine is wine that will increase in value over time, that will improve with time in bottle. and these are wines that we see traded on the secondary market. we are seeing that when we buy wine at auction or through brokers and again we tend to use reputable auction houses and reputable brokers. So these aren’t people, I think, who are doing this nefariously. I think these are the good guys who are getting tripped up by very good counterfeits.

Peter: But you would estimate that when it comes to fine and rare wine on the secondary market, anywhere between 15 and 20 is. Sorry, you said 12 to 15

Maureen Downey: Yeah, I think I’m, I’m hitting 12 to 15. I think that globally it’s probably closer to, say, 8 to 10, 5 to 10. because also a lot of times we’re buying a lot of the wines that are the most highly counterfeited. You know, I mean, if you’re taking the tranche that’s most likely to be counterfeited and you’re finding 12 to 15% there, if you expand that out, you have to dilute that statistic. Right.

Peter: I mean, there’s been big developments in Europe recently, haven’t there?

Susie: yeah.

Maureen Downey: So Alexander Lugov is back. So he was actually arrested several years ago. And I have some of his counterfeit DRC and we’ve opened it. It tastes like crap. So Alexander was arrested in Switzerland in 2017 and, extradited to France and stood trial. And he got a very light sentence and a very small fine, €150,000. Part of the deal was he was not allowed to be in the wine industry anymore. Not like he was before, anyway. But he got out and went straight back to work and was arrested last October. And at the time of arrest, he had €1.4 million worth of high end equipment, tens of thousands of euros on hand, and he was making very high end Burgundy again. But the distribution goes directly to. On this instance, the wines were flown out of Malpenza in Milan directly to otherwise reputable vendors. So these guys are literally, they are infiltrating otherwise, you know, reputable supply chains. So

00:35:00

Maureen Downey: it’s not like you can look at this anymore and say, oh, this is an auction problem, or it’s only that guy that’s the problem. I, I think people in general have to be more aware of the fact that it’s pervasive.

Peter: You’ve mentioned it’s a low barrier crime with not very significant penalties. Does law enforcement need to get more serious about this problem?

Maureen Downey: Law enforcement can’t get more serious about the problem because in order for it to be a problem, there needs to be a victim. And, neither producers, distributors, retailers, nor collectors want to come forward as being victims. So I have actually been working with the FBI on a regular basis. Since 2008. And we’ve had a number of amazing cases that go nowhere because the victims won’t be victims. So you can’t really blame law enforcement.

Peter: So who is to blame? Who can we blame? And how do we change that to improve the situation?

Maureen Downey: Well, I think that it needs to start with consumers caring. Consumers need to ask the right questions. I mean, I am loathed by vendors the globe over for encouraging consumers to ask the right questions. You know, what is the source of this bottle? Well, you know, you can trust us. We’ve been buying from this guy forever. Well, that’s the excuse that we’ve heard in time immemorial like. That’s not an answer. That is literally not an answer. Consumers need to demand better from the vendors. The vendors need to stop hiding behind willful ignorance. They have allowed themselves to, beg forgiveness rather than be responsible and get in front of it. There are a handful of vendors in the world that actually care enough to get in front of this problem. Berry Brothers and Rudd being the pinnacle.

Peter: Now you talk about people not wanting to be victims. some people, or there is a temptation to downplay these crimes, isn’t there? Saying rich wine investors should know better. there’s the insinuation these are sort of victimless crimes, perpetrated by modern day Robin Hood esque characters. What’s your response to that?

Maureen Downey: I think that’s totally gross. it hurts everyone in the supply chain. It hurts the wine trade in general. So everyone should care because it costs the trade billions and billions of dollars a year. So it’s, it’s not a victimless crime. That’s a, that’s an absolute misnomer. And also, the only people that get ripped off are not rich people. They’re just people that care about, about wine. It’s, it’s their passion, it’s their love. So why is, why is that okay? Because if you think about the fact that According to the WHO and Euromonitor, over 25% of all alcohol consumed globally is illicit, That means that a massive portion of those sales are not taxed. So think of the children. Think of all of the good that those millions of dollars could have done for the schools. So one of the other things that I like to say is next time you hit a pothole, thank a fraudster, because that is government money that could have gone to the greater good of society. That is not getting captured. so this matters. You know, it really matters. And what’s frustrating is that governments, global governments, have less oversight through the movement of illicit wine, be that grey market or counterfeit wine, than they do illegal drugs. So, you know, it there, there is a tonne of, of revenue that is supposed to be going to states for things like schools and streets and safety that is not getting collected. And I think that’s a big deal. So it hurts everyone.

Peter: Maureen, do you think we’re winning or losing the battle against wine fraud?

Maureen Downey: 100% losing.

Peter: So what does the future hold in terms of wine fraud?

Maureen Downey: well, hopefully more awareness. I mean, hopefully with this, this Alexander Lugov arrest, which was a pretty big arrest, you know, the Sassicaia arrest that was, that fraud that was uncovered. I don’t think they’ve arrested everybody, but what they’re finding, especially in Europe, is bigger and bigger, you know, frauds. So I think that we’re seeing a new era where people realise that there’s a lot of money to be made and at the end of the day we’re talking about a consumable product. So what really scares me is, you know, the health factor. Like, is it going to take people getting sick? It seems like every couple years people die from, you know, counterfeit booze on vacation in the Caribbean and then people care for a couple minutes and then, you know, squirrel and then they forget about it. So I don’t know what it’s going to take, but it’s definitely not a problem that’s getting smaller and it’s definitely not something that’s going away. And I think, think

00:40:00

Maureen Downey: that vendors need to realise that a lot of vendors want to pretend like this is a non issue. and burying your heads in the sand isn’t going to make it go away.

Peter: Maureen Downey, thank you very much indeed.

Maureen Downey: Thank you.

Susie: Wow. A lot to process. And this is the short edited down version of your chat.

Peter: Yeah, yeah. It’s kind of both fascinating and terrifying talking to Maureen. you know, she’s very brave, really. you know, she’s been taking on the wine establishment. Lots of vested interest there. you know, putting her head very prominently above the parapets against the criminal gangs too. You know, as she said, she’s had to hire bodyguards. You know, she’s been assaulted. you know, because fundamentally she’s outraged that this is allowed to happen and she thinks we should all be outraged too.

Susie: And she makes a good case. And, you know, you have to admit, wine fraud is intriguing. It makes for compelling stories, doesn’t it? You know, like in The Simpsons or in the Billionaires Vinegar or Sour Grapes, which is the excellent documentary about Rudy Kurniawan. And as you’ve said, there’s possibly an element in all of us that finds the schadenfreude of insanely rich people getting screwed over in some way satisfying. But we need to separate that from real life implications, like the risk of people getting poisoned by fake wine, like potentially 25% of all alcohol sales being untaxed and therefore not funding basic infrastructure or schools or health systems.

Peter: And, you know, I guess anyone who loves wine is a victim of this, you know, so wine lovers should be doubly outraged, because it’s made wine more expensive. you know, producers have looked at these absurd prices their wines are fetching at auctions and they’re saying, hang on, you know, why aren’t we seeing any of this profit? And they’re raising prices. now there’s a really interesting 2024 academic paper on this, which focuses on the 2020 Sassicaia scandal. and it says one of the results of that Sassicaia fraud ring being bust by the police was that the real Sassicaia went up in price. But this price inflation has partly come about because of fraudsters trying to make maximum profits.

Susie: and also arguably by middlemen facilitating those sales, maybe turning a blind eye or even being actively complicit. You know, and it makes you angry, especially given top fine wine is essentially now unaffordable for most people because it’s become a luxury good that people trade like a commodity.

Peter: I’m just kind of trying to think of an analogy here. it’s a bit like queue jumping, right? maybe it’s because I’m British, but for me there are few things in life worse than queue jumping, and queue jumpers. You know, we’ve all agreed on a fair system in the queue, but it only takes one selfish or inconsiderate person to ruin it all, you know, and fraudsters are like the ultimate queue jumpers, you know, or, you know, they’re like that neighbour who delights in making m sure you know he’s got more money than you, when actually all he’s doing is just not paying his taxes like you and everyone else do. So, you know, that kind of thing really makes people angry. And as this should do too,

Susie: I think, to be fair, I guess fraud has existed probably since trading began. You know, you’ve got a combination of greed and cunning and high value goods, meaning some people are definitely going to try to take advantage. But it does seem now, as, as Maureen says, that what may once have Been limited operations are now morphing into industrial level fraud orchestrated by organised crime. You know, this is fraudsters moving with the times. They’re like the people who infiltrate your computer and hold it to ransom, you know, or who run these online romance or pig butchering scams funded by Bitcoin that use AI and malware. And it’s bad stuff.

Peter: And it’s not just the fine and rare wines too. You know, Maureen makes the point that fraud happens at pretty much every level of the wine spectrum. I mean, you constantly read in the wine press about producers or merchants being convicted for blending X into Y and calling it Z, you know, just to make a quick buck, really. but then Maureen mentioned Yellowtail as a mass market brand that’s had issues with counterfeits. I, then spoke with a source at Yellowtail who confirmed that this has been a significant issue for them. A well organised, apparently international criminal gang working out of a wine production facility in Moldova had been churning out very convincing Yellowtail knockoffs. Maybe they think up to 100,000 cases in all. I mean, that’s serious. That’s industrial level, isn’t it? I mean, the company have pursued it legally, but don’t have, you know, much hope of any convictions. Meantime, they’re just sort of monitoring shipments as closely as they can.

Susie: Yeah, and of course, Maureen mentioned her estimate that 5 to 10% of secondary fine wine is potentially counterfeit. and that the WHO and Euromonitor estimate that around 25% of alcohol consumed globally is illicit. That’s scary. And it’s clearly getting worse. So the wine and spirits trade really needs to properly address this issue. And as

00:45:00

Susie: consumers, we need to ask the right questions. You need to stop funding organised crime and getting duff wine. Maureen says, and I quote, I don’t trust, I verify.

Peter: It sounds like something that Arnold Schwarzenegger would say, wouldn’t it, in the Terminator? She’s. She’s the wine fraud terminator. I don’t trust. I verify, baby. Anyway, I guess the problem is that, you know, people always want to bargain, don’t they? Wine can be expensive and they want to find the cheapest. Exactly. The deal, the bargain, you know, so. So, you know, bad people just take advantage of that. something. Interestingly, if you think about it, that’s probably only going to get worse in a world of tariffs and inflation.

Susie: Good point. Yeah. Yeah. Right. We need to draw this episode to a close. But before we do that, a couple of things. Firstly, we wanted to recommend Rebecca Gibb’s very entertaining book on the subject of wine fraud called Vintage Crime. We’d also of course recommend the Billionaires Vinegar by Benjamin Wallace. we’ll put a link to both in our show notes.

Peter: We’d also like to mention the wine we’ve been enjoying throughout this show. We kept a bit quiet about it, to be honest, but we have been enjoying it. It’s a very important authentic bottle of Gevrey Chambertin to tie in with the Napoleon bottle featured in the Simpsons bottle episode. Any excuse really, isn’t it? This one is Les Corvées 2015 from Domain Tortochot and it’s pretty delicious, isn’t it?

Susie: I, absolutely adore this wine. we bought it several years ago from an unimpeachable source in London who imports direct from the Domain. And it’s just tasting fabulous at the moment, isn’t it? You know, it’s fragrant and dark and foresty and the flavours just linger on and on. I mean, it’s exactly what great genuine Gevrey Chambertin should be.

Peter: Yeah, I mean, it’s not like Homer’s million dollar bottle of Gevrey Chambertin, but it’s pretty damn, fine. And I think, I think it’s really important in all of this talk of wine fraud doom, you know, to reassert the joy and wonder and fun and to just, you know, kind of life affirming deliciousness that authentic fine wine can give. These wines do exist. They’re real. Their producers deserve your custom and support. It’s just that, sadly, we all need to be vigilant and clued up as to, you know, how we buy these wines, to make sure the good guys thrive and the bad guys don’t.

Susie: Yep. So here’s to the bad guys not winning. Hardy Rodenstock, Rudy Kurniawan, Alexander Lugov, or Marge Simpson. No, we’ll give Marge a break here. She only dipped her toes in the water. And with the honourable intention of giving the proceeds to good causes. So to move on to a final summary, High end wine fraud can make for a compelling narrative. But in the real world, it’s far from being a victimless crime or a laughing matter. Organised crime is moving into wine fraud and the situation is getting worse. Burying our heads in the sand is not an option. The wine trade needs greater transparency and buyers need to verify, not trust. Otherwise we risk letting the bad guys ruin the party for all of us.

Peter: Thanks to our interviewees, Maureen Downey and Johnny LaZebnik. on a personal note, I’d also like to thank all the team at Disney and behind the scenes at the Simpsons, who’ve been an absolute delight to work with on this. it really has been a dream come true to have some of my favourite actors and characters feature on Wine Blast. On which note, I couldn’t resist letting the protagonists of Bottle Episode have the last say. Let’s all be outraged, I say.

Waylon Smithers: With the money those billionaires spend on one bottle, they could buy every poor person in the world an inexpensive but very drinkable bottle of rosé.

Marge Simpson: Those monsters!

00:48:48